Follow us on Twitter!
Don't judge the unknown - Grindordie
Wednesday, April 23, 2014
Navigation
Home
HellBoundHackers Main:
HellBoundHackers Find:
HellBoundHackers Information:
Learn
Communicate
Submit
Shop
Challenges
HellBoundHackers Exploit:
HellBoundHackers Programming:
HellBoundHackers Think:
HellBoundHackers Track:
HellBoundHackers Patch:
HellBoundHackers Other:
HellBoundHackers Need Help?
Other
Members Online
Total Online: 24
Guests Online: 21
Members Online: 3

Registered Members: 82886
Newest Member: The Slummy
Latest Articles
View Thread

HellBound Hackers | General | Debates

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Author

Privacy vs. Security

Futility
Member



Posts: 725
Location: USA
Joined: 17.12.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 30-01-09 21:27
What is more important, online privacy or making the internet a safer place to be? If privacy and anonymity were to be removed, malicious hackers would be much more reluctant to try anything because catching them would be far easier. People are more prone to follow the rules if there is a real fear of being caught. Removing their protective shield of anonymity would effectively cripple online crimes and make the internet a safer place for everyone. If you were to hire someone to do something illegal, what would be easier- finding them online with a fake identity or actually meeting in person? The fact that people can remain hidden behind their computer causes crime in the 'real world,' as well. Not only would crime decrease, but so would the number of useless trolls who go around wasting time and insulting people based on the fact that no one knows who they are.

On the other hand, removing privacy to increase security would mean that the government has more control over us than we would like to believe. Our moves would be traced and finding people would be far too easy. Since everyone would be scared of the government, they would be scared to voice their opinions. Free speech would, once again, be quashed in favor of 'protecting' people. Not only that, but people would be less honest and reluctant to really tell others how they feel, much like conversations are in the 'real world.'

So there you go, an effective start to both sides of the argument. What is more important, allowing you to retain your privacy by hiding behind a fake name, or the security of the general public? I know most of you will tend to lean towards the 'privacy' side of the argument, but try to see the other sides' thoughts. Realize that right now the internet is not a safe place to be and that everything you do has the potential that someone is going to take advantage of their anonymity and attack you. Remember, if you make a moronic remark, expect to have your reply removed and some warn point shot your way. If you don't like how this was done, voice your opinion in the 'Rules' thread.

Game On


i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh11/zanimabean/Zim.png
Futility91@hotmail.com Futility91
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 30-01-09 21:44
Futility wrote:
On the other hand, removing privacy to increase security would mean that the government has more control over us than we would like to believe.

One could easily argue that this statement is already true.

The way I see it, is that I dont have any thing to hide. I'd much rather have the government reading my emails than some random asshole who wants to destroy my computer just for kicks and giggles. It seems to me that anyone who fears such a loss of privacy is likely the kind of person who this security increase is targeting.


Futility wrote:
Not only that, but people would be less honest and reluctant to really tell others how they feel, much like conversations are in the 'real world.'

You say that like it's a bad thing. That fear of what others will think of you keeps people in check and prevents then (often, not always) from saying something stupid. I think that the lack of such need to think before speaking is part of the reason we end up with so much flaming in forums like this.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 30-01-09 22:08
It is my opinion that removing anonymity from the internet would not stop computer crime. Imagine if it were easy to deduce your geographical location from your IP. information would be gleaned from the internet and used in fraud (in real life, not on the internet). For example, it would still be possible to obtain your IP address relatively easily without obviously breaking the law, then you could potentially have someone's home address, which contains useful information for filling out 'forgot your password' forms, such as their postcode. Or your current location if you are accessing the internet from a hotspot. Its not unlikely that criminals would turn to this kind of activity if web hacking became too dangerous.

Anonymity can be a very useful thing, an example I find particularly appropriate is alerting webmasters to vulnerabilities in their sites. I have had to do this before, and, as I was not sure if this would go down well, I did it anonymously. Nobody contacted me, but the site was fixed shortly after, and while I don't know if the admin was happy or not about it, anonymity gave me the confidence to report my findings. Without this I would not have done so for fear of a bad reaction, and I feel this is not an uncommon dilemma amongst white/grey hat hackers.

For these reasons, I am in favor of retaining privacy on the internet, and continuing to battle for more security (DNSSEC, PGP, and more secure code for web 2.0 apps) to try and reach an ideal where the internet is a safe place to be again.




Edited by on 30-01-09 22:11
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 30-01-09 22:21
jjbutler88 wrote:
It is my opinion that removing anonymity from the internet would not stop computer crime.

Of course not. Nothing will ever 'stop' crime of any sort, but even if this just reduces the internet crime rate by 25% that's a major improvement.

jjbutler88 wrote:
Anonymity can be a very useful thing, an example I find particularly appropriate is alerting webmasters to vulnerabilities in their sites. I have had to do this before, and, as I was not sure if this would go down well, I did it anonymously. Nobody contacted me, but the site was fixed shortly after, and while I don't know if the admin was happy or not about it, anonymity gave me the confidence to report my findings. Without this I would not have done so for fear of a bad reaction, and I feel this is not an uncommon dilemma amongst white/grey hat hackers.

You have a valid point there, but it's not completely thought through. Consider this: I see you walking down the street, so I run up to you and rob you. You can see my face, and I'm even wearing a name tag, but that name means nothing to you. Even though the real world lack anonymity, it doesn't mean everyone knows who you are. The admins of some site wouldn't necessarily know you. It's the government who would have this information.



halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 30-01-09 22:50
Agreed, but the less information about you that is known to the person you are 'hiding from' (for whatever reason), the more effectively you have hidden. For example knowing my real email address could allow you to google and find another forum I might visit, which I may have been less paranoid when entering my details, and even someone with no clue about computer forensics can soon build up enough information about you to submit along with logs to the authorities.


Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 31-01-09 00:44
"The bad guys are always one step ahead"

its true


Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 31-01-09 01:43
moshbat wrote:
It would merely be a deterrent, not a fix.

Sure, but what law isn't? Just because it's illegal for me to own an assault rifle doesn't mean I couldn't waltz around town with an ak-47 if I knew how to obtain one.

This would prevent a lot of the little skids from causing trouble so the police (or whatever you want to call them) can focus on the real hackers and not have to sift through trash.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg


Edited by ynori7 on 31-01-09 01:44
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

shadowls
You Like this!



Posts: 840
Location:
Joined: 07.12.06
Rank:
God
Posted on 31-01-09 01:48
I think security is more important, if you can prevent someone from breeching into your website or anyweb site to hijack personal information, then that will not be a problem for privacy.


If you think my post are useful to you, please vote for them. Thank You


knowledge is powerful itself - SHADOWLS


i41.tinypic.com/mjwz7t.jpg

Made by:agentmax69, but remastered by: KvK


Coffee
None None
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 31-01-09 09:56
ynori7 wrote:
The way I see it, is that I dont have any thing to hide..


NO!

NO, NO, NO!

Not this argument. I really have to stress this point; you -do- have things to hide. Sure, you trust your current government. Sure, you do trust the current force of law.

In just a matter of years, 4, 8, new power will arise. Who's to say your country isn't overrun by terrorists and taken over? Who's to say you never have to revolute, you never have to struggle to survive?

You NEED privacy. You NEED to be able to hide things. Always.

jjbutler88
It is my opinion that removing anonymity from the internet would not stop computer crime.


This. It would probably just encourage identity theft, regular theft or internet tapping.

Edit: The terrorist thing was merely an example, and only that.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce

Edited by spyware on 31-01-09 19:54
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 31-01-09 19:07
spyware wrote:
I really have to stress this point; you -do- have things to hide.

Yes, let me rephrase: I don't have anything to hide that can be found on the internet. That of mine which I truly wish to hide is hidden internally.

spyware wrote:
In just a matter of years, 4, 8, new power will arise. Who's to say your country isn't overrun by terrorists and taken over? Who's to say you never have to revolute, you never have to struggle to survive?

If my government is taken over by terrorists, I highly doubt privacy will have long to live. I don't see where you're going with this argument.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 31-01-09 19:53
ynori7 wrote:If my government is taken over by terrorists, I highly doubt privacy will have long to live. I don't see where you're going with this argument.


What I'm trying to make clear is that you do need privacy. Even if you, now, have "nothing to hide". Would you like it if your postman read all your bills, letters and whatnot?

Not only is privacy a way of protecting yourself, it's also a way of protecting us, from each other. It's a shield. We need it.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 31-01-09 19:57
spyware wrote:
Would you like it if your postman read all your bills, letters and whatnot?

Would I like it? No. But if it would help deter crime then I'd be willing to accept it. That's the social contract.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 31-01-09 20:05
ynori7 wrote:Would I like it? No. But if it would help deter crime then I'd be willing to accept it. That's the social contract.


Making everything open to read only will heighten the crime rates. Mailing bank account stuff? Not safe. Mailing about locations of valuable things? Not safe. Mailing about assassinating the leader of a criminal, corrupt and cruel government? You, are, not, safe.

Not ever!

Think about it, when you give privacy away, you'll immediately notice why it was there in the first place. Chaos will emerge after abandoning it. I'm talking about theft, murder and corruption. Those things will happen when you take away privacy. Bad things.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 31-01-09 21:17
First off, we're not talking about making every detail available to anyone who wants to know. The information is only open to a limited group (police, government, etc.).

Also, we're not talking about completely eliminating all forms of privacy, we're talking about the internet. People survived for quite a long time before the internet was around, and if they lose their internet anonymity it will not mean chaos and destruction.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 31-01-09 21:46
ynori7 wrote:
First off, we're not talking about making every detail available to anyone who wants to know. The information is only open to a limited group (police, government, etc.).


I've never seen a police force I completely trust. Same goes for government. Sure, the intentions of most people who work there are pure, I just don't trust all of them. Mainly the ones with the most power tend to crook a little bit. I'm with John Dalberg-Acton on this one.

ynori7 wrote:
Also, we're not talking about completely eliminating all forms of privacy, we're talking about the internet. People survived for quite a long time before the internet was around, and if they lose their internet anonymity it will not mean chaos and destruction.


You're quite right about this. If internet isn't safe (any more), (some) people will probably start using either old-school or new-school stuff. They'll (re-)invent communication methods.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

K3174N 420
Member



Posts: 296
Location: In a grow room, growing cannabis.
Joined: 14.09.08
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Warn Level: 69
Posted on 31-01-09 21:49
It's all about the balance, there are people on each side and every point inbetween on this argument.

I personally, would vote 100% privacy, though since I really don't do anything illegal online the second wouldn't be a disaster that would immediately lead to my arrest... That said, I fucking hate my 'nanny state', political correctness and the 'big brother' government.

It is true that 100% online moderation could massively decrease crime, but it would also destroy every feeling of privacy you have online, from personal emails, to what sites you visit, the thought of this seriously sends a shiver deep down my spine.
I am aware that the government knows more about us than I dare imagine, they know things about us that they won't admit, things that could not be used in courts, information that is only dealt with behind closed doors. If they where to gain power to that degree of publicly aware moderation, to be able to use and incriminate/fine millions of people for fucking petty stuff, it would destroy the Internet as we know it, so much would change, no one would download copyrighted stuff, many would be ashamed to view porn, and billions of sites would surly die...

Also this would doubtfully be a cure... With the millions of computer educated people, all unable to do as we did, do you expect us to all accept that? If not anarchy, people would find a way to a means of Internet, it wouldn't take long for underground Internet to form, people would still find away to file share and communicate privatively, the government could not stop people putting together and linking their own computers, this would spread, 'under the scope' sites would be created this way, particularly for the more notorious things...

The moderation of the Internet by our governments will never decrease, but we are as secure and private as we want to be... If you want 100% online anonymity, you can have it, if you know how. It all depends what your using the Internet for I guess... Wink


EDIT typo


Thanks Yours31f!
img114.imageshack.us/img114/1497/keiran420cy2.jpg
Make poverty history... Cheaper drugs now! - Frank gallagher
[small][center]Einstein climbs to the top of Mt. Sinai to get close enough to talk to God.
Looking up, he asks the Lord...
"God, what does a million years mean to you?"
The Lord replies, "A minute."
"Einstein asks, "And what does a million pounds mean to you?"
The Lord replies, "A penny."
Einste

Edited by K3174N 420 on 31-01-09 21:51
http://keiran420.ueuo.com/
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 31-01-09 22:35
The ideology remains the same for hiding things. You have things at home you intend to hide, and if you intend to hide them on your personal computer but theoretically can't do to foreign action, meaning not yours, then it doesn't seem right. In fact it seems wrong. Privacy is a key thing of your personal life. Anonymity... Not so much because as states by Ynori, the ones trying to hide are most likely the ones who would be targeted.
However... As Spyware stated, they are <b>NEEDED</b> due to terrorist action, very true. And our government is so fucked up that it makes Brittany Spears look good.. Even when she was bald. Moreover, we have people like you, Spyware, who just have a natural "nack" for this kind of stuff. I personally would look towards the intellectual persons like yourself to fix the government. I am unsure what would need to happen but I know your the people to make it happen though. I got to go for now though, later guys.
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

shadowls
You Like this!



Posts: 840
Location:
Joined: 07.12.06
Rank:
God
Posted on 01-02-09 23:27
moshbat wrote:
shadowls wrote:
I think security is more important, if you can prevent someone from breeching into your website or anyweb site to hijack personal information, then that will not be a problem for privacy.

You can *never* fully secure anything. There will always be something that is insecure... Although, in theory it's possible to fully secure something, I have never seen it.



But if my theory is right, then all you have to do is try to keep something secure and there will be not be any problem with privacy.


If you think my post are useful to you, please vote for them. Thank You


knowledge is powerful itself - SHADOWLS


i41.tinypic.com/mjwz7t.jpg

Made by:agentmax69, but remastered by: KvK


Coffee
None None
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 01-02-09 23:36
shadowls wrote:But if my theory is right, then all you have to do is try to keep something secure and there will be not be any problem with privacy.


In theory, yeah, but that's not how it will go in practice.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Privacy vs. Security

shadowls
You Like this!



Posts: 840
Location:
Joined: 07.12.06
Rank:
God
Posted on 01-02-09 23:42
Don't get me wrong but, you are absolutely right. Nothing can be completely secure but you can always try to keep a website secure as much as you can. That will make it less likely that your site will be penetrated and that will prevent people from steeling people information. The least you can do is try.


If you think my post are useful to you, please vote for them. Thank You


knowledge is powerful itself - SHADOWLS


i41.tinypic.com/mjwz7t.jpg

Made by:agentmax69, but remastered by: KvK


Coffee
None None
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >