Follow us on Twitter!
Ideas are far more powerful than guns.
Thursday, April 24, 2014
Navigation
Home
HellBoundHackers Main:
HellBoundHackers Find:
HellBoundHackers Information:
Learn
Communicate
Submit
Shop
Challenges
HellBoundHackers Exploit:
HellBoundHackers Programming:
HellBoundHackers Think:
HellBoundHackers Track:
HellBoundHackers Patch:
HellBoundHackers Other:
HellBoundHackers Need Help?
Other
Members Online
Total Online: 29
Guests Online: 24
Members Online: 5

Registered Members: 82903
Newest Member: Piriformis
Latest Articles
View Thread

HellBound Hackers | Computer General | Webmasters Lounge

Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Author

RE: Starting a new company


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 02-12-10 19:02
I forgot something I wanted to add.

Go to Google Maps, and search "web design your-home-town". Look at these guys. These are the local competition. This is what I meant by "You're cheep, you love learning, and you love working long hours." This is the exact opposite of most of the local competition. Without exception, on at least one of those three things. That's your angle.

In the beginning, you'll be charging a flat rate as well. Get used to that too. There will always be times where you're stuck, or have to research, or make a stupid mistake... but if you want a return customer you don't charge them for this stuff. And you keep them in the loop if you do go over the initial estimate. I think You'll find that there is plenty of work where you live. I think you'll learn a bit more by staying local too, like social skills. That's just my opinion though. Like Cheese mentioned, at least you won't have to deal with people who say "I live 2,000 miles away, what are you going to do about it?" when it's time to collect payment.


Author

RE: Starting a new company

idlecomet
Member

Your avatar

Posts: 2
Location:
Joined: 14.11.10
Rank:
Newbie
Posted on 02-12-10 20:26
Hi, in relation to freelance sites: I've done some work on vWorker.com (actually quite a bit). I've done at least a few months worth of work, and I'm in the top 1-2% of workers, by rating. But I'm still earning way below minimum wage. Competing in the international market is difficult if your country has a high cost of living. So you'll probably need another primary source of income if taking the freelance route. (And if you're a U.S. citizen, vWorker will inform the IRS that you're working there.)

I am however building a nice portfolio, which was my intent. My specialty is software development on Unix using C/C++, SDL, OpenGL, maths, etc., stuff that I thought would always be in high demand. There seems to be a lot more work in iPhone apps, Flash games, and other useless garbage. I also believe there's plenty of web development opportunities.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually "made it" through any freelance site, and starting earning a real income. Or does everyone (in the West at least) simply use these for experience?
Author

RE: Starting a new company

Demons Halo
Member



Posts: 261
Location: Sweden
Joined: 26.03.09
Rank:
Apprentice
Posted on 02-12-10 22:44
I really appreciate all the advice so far guys Smile it's nice to see a helpful thread for once Pfft

Mr_Cheese wrote:
when i left college having failed computing a-level and thus unable to get into uni :happy: i had 2 choices... get a job at a supermarket, or go self employed.

i chose to go freelance in web development. within two months i had a business producing a healthy income!

one thing to note is that in the beginning you will spend around the same amount of time actively looking for work as you will working on jobs. also getting paid is fucking irritating! you'll spend a large amount of time chasing clients to actually pay up! make sure you got everything agreed in writing over email before you start.


Which have been the case so far. I have managed to find a couple of trustable clients that keeps providing me with jobs every now and then, but it is not nearly enough to pay my bills Pfft


i got most of my clients from the UK site gumtree. Also myspace was quite popular back then and a lot of bands needed websites. I also got some clients from a local paper that had a job section.

as mentioned before in this thread, you'll need a good site selling yourself with a very slick portfolio. when i started i bought a couple of cheap domains and setup fake websites and put them on my portfolio Pfft


haha nothing beats an innovative cheater. I will definitely give that a shot Pfft


problem is over the last couple of years out-sourcing web design/development to india/romania has become extremely common as they are able to work for far cheaper than we can.

you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there... charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.

hope thats helpful!


That was VERY helpful, thank you Smile
and btw, I like the business model you mentioned. Since I am always working alone, having some of the work delegated to india would not be such a bad idea. It would save me a lot of time and effort.


maug wrote:
I forgot something I wanted to add.

Go to Google Maps, and search "web design your-home-town". Look at these guys. These are the local competition. This is what I meant by "You're cheep, you love learning, and you love working long hours." This is the exact opposite of most of the local competition. Without exception, on at least one of those three things. That's your angle.

In the beginning, you'll be charging a flat rate as well. Get used to that too. There will always be times where you're stuck, or have to research, or make a stupid mistake... but if you want a return customer you don't charge them for this stuff. And you keep them in the loop if you do go over the initial estimate. I think You'll find that there is plenty of work where you live. I think you'll learn a bit more by staying local too, like social skills. That's just my opinion though. Like Cheese mentioned, at least you won't have to deal with people who say "I live 2,000 miles away, what are you going to do about it?" when it's time to collect payment.


I have nothing against flat rates. As long as it's a fair sum of money for the amount of work that I put in. Also, I always make sure to give the clients a test period where they can try the product and suggest changes in case needed (free of charge ofc).

Thanks for the advice. It sounds certainly a lot more logical than having to chase people across the glob. Yet, something tells me that there are not enough jobs available on a local level. I might be wrong though, I'll have to check that out!
base_dropper@hotmail.com www.demonshalo.com
Author

RE: Starting a new company

Demons Halo
Member



Posts: 261
Location: Sweden
Joined: 26.03.09
Rank:
Apprentice
Posted on 02-12-10 22:52
idlecomet wrote:
Hi, in relation to freelance sites: I've done some work on vWorker.com (actually quite a bit). I've done at least a few months worth of work, and I'm in the top 1-2% of workers, by rating. But I'm still earning way below minimum wage. Competing in the international market is difficult if your country has a high cost of living. So you'll probably need another primary source of income if taking the freelance route. (And if you're a U.S. citizen, vWorker will inform the IRS that you're working there.)

I am however building a nice portfolio, which was my intent. My specialty is software development on Unix using C/C++, SDL, OpenGL, maths, etc., stuff that I thought would always be in high demand. There seems to be a lot more work in iPhone apps, Flash games, and other useless garbage. I also believe there's plenty of web development opportunities.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually "made it" through any freelance site, and starting earning a real income. Or does everyone (in the West at least) simply use these for experience?


That just confirms how much Freelance sucks in the long run. I mean sure, you'll get the experience, but the pay might not cover the bills... That's why I wanted to start a company and maybe concentrate on doing work for well established companies with the ability to pay good money.

From what I've noticed, most people does not know what they want. Therefore, whatever you offer them will get the impressed in case you present it correctly. I am not saying that you should create shitty products and do fancy presentations, but the level of experience that you guys seem to ask for seems a bit high (any thoughts on that? Pfft)
base_dropper@hotmail.com www.demonshalo.com
Author

RE: Starting a new company


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 02-12-10 23:36
I am probably too biased. Computer repair can't be outsourced, and it needs to be locally done. Still, it sounds like those sites are a market for buyers and not workers. And I do see regular ads for web design ads on craigs list.


Author

RE: Starting a new company

idlecomet
Member

Your avatar

Posts: 2
Location:
Joined: 14.11.10
Rank:
Newbie
Posted on 02-12-10 23:41
Well I can empathize with your situation, DH. I love working with computers, but I couldn't stick computer science in college, it was so BORING!

I can only comment on freelance software development. The employers on vWorker that I've worked for, mostly seem to be self-employed businessmen. I've also worked for other freelancers who "outsourced" their jobs to me (which kinda feels like I've been cheated; but those were the best-paying jobs).

One of the problems starting out with freelancing is that it's difficult to predict how long a job will take. And you usually negotiate price beforehand.

As regards experience, the employers I've worked with, many being self-employed programmers, know exactly what they want. They leave a lot of implementation details to the worker, but their specifications are generally clear. Maybe it's different in web development.


[A side note: if anyone from the Revenue Commission is reading this, I was joking about working online, I pay all my taxes, and what are YOU doing on a hacking site during work hours??]
Author

RE: Starting a new company

AldarHawk
Member



Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Posted on 03-12-10 12:22
On the way of this freelance chat that is happening I would like to put in a few cents here.

Freelance work CAN pay the bills. The problem is not freelance, it is the sites you look on. vWorker is flooded with people from China, India and Romainia who will do a $50 for $5. That is the problem.

I steer clear of these sites. Rather I work on my own personal website while pounding the pavement when I need to. Yes I do work a full time job and my freelance work is a side note, but it makes me enough money to play with when I need to.

If you are looking to make some money, hit me up on MSN/AIM (I think you are on my list) and we will have a nice conversation, as a conversation normally is better than a bunch of forum posts Smile


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Starting a new company

Demons Halo
Member



Posts: 261
Location: Sweden
Joined: 26.03.09
Rank:
Apprentice
Posted on 04-12-10 00:37
idlecomet wrote:
Well I can empathize with your situation, DH. I love working with computers, but I couldn't stick computer science in college, it was so BORING!

I can only comment on freelance software development. The employers on vWorker that I've worked for, mostly seem to be self-employed businessmen. I've also worked for other freelancers who "outsourced" their jobs to me (which kinda feels like I've been cheated; but those were the best-paying jobs).

One of the problems starting out with freelancing is that it's difficult to predict how long a job will take. And you usually negotiate price beforehand.

As regards experience, the employers I've worked with, many being self-employed programmers, know exactly what they want. They leave a lot of implementation details to the worker, but their specifications are generally clear. Maybe it's different in web development.


[A side note: if anyone from the Revenue Commission is reading this, I was joking about working online, I pay all my taxes, and what are YOU doing on a hacking site during work hours??]


Thanks for your input Smile
I actually find myself being in that same spot you mentioned quite often. When charging a flat rate, you cannot really estimate how much time a project is going to consume. Therefore, its hard to put a price on your work before you even start.

is there any general rule you guys follow for estimating a price?


AldarHawk wrote:
On the way of this freelance chat that is happening I would like to put in a few cents here.

Freelance work CAN pay the bills. The problem is not freelance, it is the sites you look on. vWorker is flooded with people from China, India and Romainia who will do a $50 for $5. That is the problem.

I steer clear of these sites. Rather I work on my own personal website while pounding the pavement when I need to. Yes I do work a full time job and my freelance work is a side note, but it makes me enough money to play with when I need to.

If you are looking to make some money, hit me up on MSN/AIM (I think you are on my list) and we will have a nice conversation, as a conversation normally is better than a bunch of forum posts Smile


I have been on vWorker for a couple days now and I can honestly say that I dont find it attractive at all. So I guess that vWorker is off the table for now :/

MoshBat wrote:
You could always run around the local businesses and do work for very, very little, or even nothing, on the agreement that they will drop your name to other businesses/contacts.


That might be worth it actually. thnks!
base_dropper@hotmail.com www.demonshalo.com
Author

RE: Starting a new company

ADIGA
Member



Posts: 57
Location: Jordan - Middle East
Joined: 28.12.07
Rank:
Mad User
Posted on 11-01-11 16:35
finish your education kid Smile

PM me for help with what you want to do and dont worry i wont steal any ideas as im from the middle east where nothing but stupidity works Pfft

did have some marketing experience and have few (for my own studies) for such as those things Smile
adiga_php@hotmail.com adiga.hacker@yahoo.com www.adiga.ws
Author

RE: Starting a new company

Mr_Cheese




Posts: 2468
Location: Brighton, UK
Joined: 30.11.04
Rank:
Uber Elite
Posted on 11-01-11 18:10
Demons Halo wrote:
is there any general rule you guys follow for estimating a price?


i have a fixed daily rate i charge and when i estimate how long a project will take, my general rule is .. (estimated time * 2) - a few days Grin projects ALWAYS over run your estimated time.. and if they're happy with the quote you provide, you have plenty of time and don't have to rush! less stressful Smile
http://www.hellboundhackers.org/
Author

RE: Starting a new company

goluhaque
Member



Posts: 197
Location: India
Joined: 17.02.10
Rank:
Apprentice
Warn Level: 30
Posted on 13-01-11 18:45
If you don't plan on hitting up at vWorker, never visit scriptLance. It is way worse.

Another thing that many people overlook is what you write in the comment when you apply for a job on these sites. Throw in words like "hacking" and related shit, like you will make that code unexploitable, and you usually end up getting that job, even if your bid is higher than average. People are very stupid, you should just know how to fool them on such sites.


That applause I receive from y'all on posting this post would have gotten me drunk on power if I hadn't already been high on life.
Author

RE: Starting a new company

spyware
Member



Posts: 4192
Location:
Joined: 14.04.07
Rank:
God
Warn Level: 90
Posted on 13-01-11 20:11
Mr_Cheese wrote:
problem is over the last couple of years out-sourcing web design/development to india/romania has become extremely common as they are able to work for far cheaper than we can.

you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there... charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.

hope thats helpful!


Wow, I just read this and now I keep wondering, how do you sleep at night?



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Starting a new company

t0xikc0mputer
Member



Posts: 112
Location: t0xik waste dump
Joined: 07.01.11
Rank:
Newbie
Posted on 18-01-11 00:07
Demons Halo wrote:
spyware wrote:
maug wrote:
This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.


Acccccctually. "Companies" like Twitter succeed these days, don't they? I'd say we're back in boom-land, 2.0. The new dot com is dot me. Social. Simplicity. Nihilistic logos, AJAXified webpages. Users develop. Etc.

Bloody excrement if you ask me, but it's here.


Even though you are a total douchebag I will have to agree with you.... besides the new APIs for the mobile market that are out there will keep pushing the bubble toward expansion.


maug wrote:
ok... so I could very well make the next facebook. But it would take me 5 years, I would have no income until I'm some kind of techie celebrity, and my diet would probably be something like cold potatoes and vitamin pills. But if I wanted work by tomorrow, I'd place my bet on free lance or an internship.


That's why it's often done by a group of people, 2-3 ppl.

but that is actually not my problem. I am not trying to be the next Zuckerberg. I am just trying to get enough information to start my oun self-sustaining company ;P


Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder)


Author

RE: Starting a new company


Member

Your avatar

Posts:
Location:
Joined: 01.01.70
Rank:
Guest
Posted on 18-01-11 00:33
Mr_Cheese wrote:
you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there... charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.


I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing. Just watch out you don't get ioncubed shit or whatever. Wouldn't be the first one who gets this, and then you'll have to explain to your client why you can't edit that simple script to fit their needs just a bit more.

Just throwing it out there


Author

RE: Starting a new company

ynori7
Member



Posts: 1486
Location: #valhalla
Joined: 08.10.07
Rank:
God
Posted on 18-01-11 00:39
t0xikc0mputer wrote:
Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder)

You don't get warned for being dangerous, you get warned for being annoying and causing problems.


halls-of-valhalla.org/images/affiliateLogo.png voodoorage.halls-of-valhalla.org/images/smallLogo.png
i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/ynori77/archenemysig1.jpg
ynori7 http://halls-of-valhalla.org
Author

RE: Starting a new company

stealth-
Member



Posts: 1003
Location: Eh?
Joined: 10.04.09
Rank:
Mad User
Posted on 18-01-11 03:54
t0xikc0mputer wrote:
(I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder)


I lol'd.


The irony of man's condition is that the deepest need is to be free of the anxiety of death and annihilation; but it is life itself which awakens it, and so we must shrink from being fully alive.
http://www.stealt. . .
http://www.stealth-x.com
Author

RE: Starting a new company

goluhaque
Member



Posts: 197
Location: India
Joined: 17.02.10
Rank:
Apprentice
Warn Level: 30
Posted on 19-01-11 06:15
ynori7 wrote:
t0xikc0mputer wrote:
Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder)

You don't get warned for being dangerous, you get warned for being annoying and causing problems.

lol


That applause I receive from y'all on posting this post would have gotten me drunk on power if I hadn't already been high on life.
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2