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Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
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Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
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Hacker Level 1
Posted on 14-05-12 13:26
spyware wrote:
You and aldarhawk keep mentioning a certain group of people who supposedly are deserving of more than a usual amount of influence in this project. How were those members chosen, and why? How will that group change over time, and why is there such a group in the first place?


Okay, to put everyones minds at ease I will simply list some of the members that I have brought back from the olden days (6 years ago+) that have stated they will help with the project where possible.

Richo (You all should know Richo).

SkareCrow (The original one who ran WarpedCoders) Who is currently working for a company who is implementing a huge system in Ruby and he is one of the main programmers on the team.

T-Metal (You heard me right) If you do not know the name, look it up. He was huge when HBH was.

SlimTim (See Above) Once again, see the T-Metal comments.

This is just four of the members that I have brought back on board. There are many others that are frequents on the site and ones that used to admin HBH as well. Our main target right now is an attempt to get the main system up and running by Early to Mid June of this year. Once the framework is complete I am planning on opening the system up to the public. The reason I am so hush-hush right now is because we are still working on base systems, what framework style we will be utilizing, programming language(s) we will be utilizing for the backbone of the new system and what SQL system we will be using.

For now my thoughts are that we are going to program the main system in Ruby with a PostgreSQL database utilizing a MVC framework of the system. But this may be over turned if the masses of the initial programing team think it better to go another route.

Once again, if you have any other questions please feel free to post them here and I will do my best to answer them.


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

Arabian
Banned



Posts: 332
Location: inside you.
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Posted on 14-05-12 15:03
But there's no reason to be hush-hush, dawg! I don't understand the secrecy about free open work for a site that all members are invested in seeing improve, and who's work will be released and developed by members for free as well.

That sounds like great news and it's good to see some older members of whom I've never met potentially contributing.

After all, THIS:

www.erikwestlake.com/wp-content/uploads/kite-aldarhawk-signature.png

was not very convincing.


G'bye y'all! I was an asshole, So korg banned me.

Edited by Arabian on 14-05-12 15:18
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

richohealey
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Posts: 1022
Location: #!/usr/local/bin/python
Joined: 01.05.06
Rank:
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Posted on 14-05-12 15:39
Holy shit.

I'm still a thing.


bitchohealey at hotmail dot com skype:richohealey www.psych0tik.net
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

stealth-
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Posts: 1003
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Posted on 14-05-12 15:57
As annoying and harassing as spyware may seem Aldarhawk, he's just speaking for the group of us which don't want to be cut out here and not actually see anything happen, which is exactly what happened before.

It's tremendously good news to see such a large member comeback though, although I've never met most. It's especially nice to see the site change hands.

Are you going to be taking over ownership of HBH, or just management?


The irony of man's condition is that the deepest need is to be free of the anxiety of death and annihilation; but it is life itself which awakens it, and so we must shrink from being fully alive.
http://www.stealt. . .
http://www.stealth-x.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
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Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Posted on 14-05-12 17:15
Arabian said:
But there's no reason to be hush-hush, dawg! I don't understand the secrecy about free open work for a site that all members are invested in seeing improve, and who's work will be released and developed by members for free as well.

The reason I am being hush-hush on this, is because I just want to ensure everything is underway before anything big is brought to the forefront. It will be an open source system for sure, and anyone will be able to give us their code for inclusion in the system if it is acceptable. I wanted to ensure everything is ready for this to happen before it was all put out there though. But that is fine, you all know we are working on it, and if you have issues with it, you will voice them.

richohealey said:
Holy shit.
I'm still a thing.

Well, you are far more than a thing IMO Richo. You are one who knows a lot and has real life experience in all this.

stealth- said:
As annoying and harassing as spyware may seem Aldarhawk, he's just speaking for the group of us which don't want to be cut out here and not actually see anything happen, which is exactly what happened before.

I know full well what happened before. If you knew me you would see that it is what originally drove me (and I am sure many others) away from HBH. I know everyone wants in and spyware is saying what a lot of people are scared too say, but it is not always what is said. Often it is the way the message is presented. People will get less defensive if the statements are not made in an attack.

stealth- said:
It's tremendously good news to see such a large member comeback though, although I've never met most. It's especially nice to see the site change hands.
Are you going to be taking over ownership of HBH, or just management?

Yes I know it is good to see that some of the older members are coming back, and it is all through contacts that I have retained. The site changing hands is also another thing that will spur a lot of change for HBH. As for the ownership of HBH, that is still all fully under discussion. I am working on it, and my ultimate goal is to take full ownership, but it depends on many different aspects as to how this all turns out.

For anyone else who has not put their opinions here, please do. I am looking for a civil talk on this, as I am looking for the best option for the community and I am wanting to ensure that the community as a whole thrives and grows. No need for stagnant ideas and ideals to bog us down. Let's bring HBH back to the glory days of old, and exceed the expectations.



Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH


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Posted on 14-05-12 17:48
Its nice to see everyone making a return to HBH, but my question is why now what has changed in 4 years to make you all come back and start work again ?
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

spyware
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Posted on 14-05-12 19:13
It is absolutely inexcusable that a team of "prime" HBH Redux members was chosen without discussing it in a public forum, and it is absolutely terrifying that you want to make sure that "everything is underway" before a discussion has taken place in which project goals are determined.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce

Edited by spyware on 14-05-12 19:14
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
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Location: Canada
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Posted on 14-05-12 19:26
spyware wrote:
It is absolutely inexcusable that a team of "prime" HBH Redux members was chosen without discussing it in a public forum, and it is absolutely terrifying that you want to make sure that "everything is underway" before a discussion has taken place in which project goals are determined.


One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

spyware
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Posted on 14-05-12 19:29
AldarHawk wrote:
One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.


You definitely shouldn't consult like this on a case-per-case basis; vivify the wiki on GitHub with alterable pages denoting project outlines, milestones and goals, and then make sure that wiki page is visible for every HBH member (ie. news post and a forum thread on here).



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

goluhaque
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Posts: 197
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Posted on 15-05-12 11:11
spyware wrote:
AldarHawk wrote:
One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.


You definitely shouldn't consult like this on a case-per-case basis; vivify the wiki on GitHub with alterable pages denoting project outlines, milestones and goals, and then make sure that wiki page is visible for every HBH member (ie. news post and a forum thread on here).


Agree. Without that, you end up confusing the shit out of everyone, and in the process, repeating the same thing again and again.

And the return of the old members makes butterflies fly in my stomach. Really really cool.


That applause I receive from y'all on posting this post would have gotten me drunk on power if I hadn't already been high on life.
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

richohealey
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Posted on 15-05-12 15:27
Ok, a nontrivial way in which people can participate at this early stage:

Here is the current repo. There's basically no code in it, for now it's just an issue tracker.

https://github.com/HBHRP/Redux

If you've got time on your hands, start filing issues and filling out the wiki (filing issues is the most helpful).

Please try to be articulate. I don't need 10k "It should be fucken awesome" issues clogging up my feed, but I'm happy enough to triage them and provide feedback.

For those of you a bit more fluent, when we're moving a bit further down the dev part, even just writing the title for testcases and specs is massively helpful (and ties in directly with the codebase)


bitchohealey at hotmail dot com skype:richohealey www.psych0tik.net
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

goluhaque
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Posted on 15-05-12 16:21
richohealey wrote:
Ok, a nontrivial way in which people can participate at this early stage:

Here is the current repo. There's basically no code in it, for now it's just an issue tracker.

https://github.com/HBHRP/Redux

If you've got time on your hands, start filing issues and filling out the wiki (filing issues is the most helpful).

Don't know anything about git. I guess it's time now.


That applause I receive from y'all on posting this post would have gotten me drunk on power if I hadn't already been high on life.
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

reaper4334
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Posts: 315
Location: Uk
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Posted on 17-05-12 00:14
AldarHawk wrote:
The reason I am so hush-hush right now is because we are still working on base systems, what framework style we will be utilizing, programming language(s) we will be utilizing for the backbone of the new system and what SQL system we will be using.


Not to encourage more arguments, but why exactly does this mean anything has to be kept hush-hush?

Deciding what framework style, programming language(s) and what SQL system does not have to be kept hush-hush.

In fact, surely this could be something that the community would benefit from helping to decide? If you're planning on having the community put a lot of work into this, then it just makes it even better that they have a say in what tools to use, right?



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www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png
reaper4334@hotmail.co.uk http://reaper4334.freehostia.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
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Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Posted on 17-05-12 12:18
reaper4334 wrote:
Not to encourage more arguments...

Never start a post like this, unless you actually ARE trying to encourage one.

reaper4334 wrote:
Deciding what framework style, programming language(s) and what SQL system does not have to be kept hush-hush.

No, it does not have to be. But we were still working out all the logistics of the project and I was only speaking with people of whom I trusted and who I knew would be able to help. Even now, all the logistics are not sorted out, but there is nothing I can do about that. The reason it was being kept hush-hush was to ensure that everything in the move went smoothly. Constant bickering on the forums is not a way to help the process of a changing of the management team.

reaper4334 wrote:
In fact, surely this could be something that the community would benefit from helping to decide? If you're planning on having the community put a lot of work into this, then it just makes it even better that they have a say in what tools to use, right?

Are you offering to help reaper? What are you willing to contribute? You going to program the framework? You going to use any specific language? What about Database systems?
These are not as easily discussed on a board where everyone thinks they are right and (from what I see a lot) no one can really come to a consensus about anything. There is way too much negativity around here as to what can(not) be done and I was not in the mood for that when I was in talks with Dan to take over the site.

I fully understand all of your concerns about this, but you need to note, that I am doing this as a goodwill gesture because I believe that HBH can be so much more than it has become. If you do not like the decisions that are being made please talk to me about them. It can be publicly here, as has been the case with spyware and a few others, or privately so all fears can be quelled and you can rest easy.

I know this posting is going to bring a lot of negativity back to me, but please note that if you want to flame me, have fun, just know that no matter what is said, I will continue to manage the way I manage.


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

spyware
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Posted on 17-05-12 18:13
Overzealous project manager? Check. Who died and made you boss, boss?

And you don't get to say you're doing it out of "goodwill" and thus, get to dismiss any criticism or questions people might have. You just don't, okay, so don't even try it. You're replaceable, everybody is. Your "goodwill" isn't the lifeline of this project, and when it stops the project boulders on.

Edit: And misrepresenting thoughtful analysis as a "flame"... disgusting. It should be clear to anyone that reaper wasn't flaming anyone, he even felt the need to wrap his post in a cuddly feel-good sentence to ensure people wouldn't overreact to a simple query. And you did. For shame.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.
- Carl Sagan
[center]�Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?� - Ebert[/ce

Edited by spyware on 17-05-12 18:22
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
Member



Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Posted on 17-05-12 19:31
spyware wrote:
Overzealous project manager? Check. Who died and made you boss, boss?

No one died spyware. I was assigned management of the site by the current owner...Dan.
Project Manager? No.
Site Manager. Yes.

spyware wrote:
And you don't get to say you're doing it out of "goodwill" and thus, get to dismiss any criticism or questions people might have. You just don't, okay, so don't even try it. You're replaceable, everybody is. Your "goodwill" isn't the lifeline of this project, and when it stops the project boulders on.

You think without someone to take up the reins and work with everyone to get the project underway and completed it will get done? Let's look at HBHv2. I know Mordak has issues with health and such, but no one took the reins and set deadlines. No one was really managing the system. Where is it today?

spyware wrote:
Edit: And misrepresenting thoughtful analysis as a "flame"... disgusting. It should be clear to anyone that reaper wasn't flaming anyone, he even felt the need to wrap his post in a cuddly feel-good sentence to ensure people wouldn't overreact to a simple query. And you did. For shame.

Nothing about your thoughtful analysis was ever interpreted as a flame spyware. I was simply stating that I did not want this to turn into something that often happens on these boards...


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

KvK
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Posted on 17-05-12 23:33
My opinion is that HBH is dying not due to a lack of features or it's flawed infrastructure, but instead because of it's community. The community is small and most new members come primarily for the challenges while rarely posting in the forum.

I've seen two common types of hacking communities. One is a large community of script kiddies trying to learn to hack and the other is a small group of hackers that share information. In my opinion, HBH is somewhere in between these examples, and I feel that in order to become a stable community, the administrators have to decide on which type of people they want the site to cater to.

As it is now, HBH will die a slow death. If you guys want to attract new people, then you have to cater to the script kiddies. Otherwise, we are the only community that will be. New age hackers have Anonymous and Lulzsec as role models and older hackers generally aren't looking for new communities to join. This appears to be how hacking culture has evolved and there is little that can be done to redirect it.

In regards to the renewal of HBH, I primarily agree with Spyware in that it should be built for the community by the community, however, I also understand AldarHawk's argument that we had our chance and chose inaction. It's like the child who wants the toy only when someone else wants to play with it. Personally, if the community were allowed to build the new HBH, I would contribute, but not likely by much. I'd like to say I would contribute a great deal to it's development, but I can't because I'm selfish and would likely put my own projects before HBH. If someone else is willing to shoulder the burden of having the site rebuilt under their management, then I say go for it, because I'm not going to do it and I doubt many others would either.

There. My $0.02 has been deposited.
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

maug2
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Posts: 29
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Posted on 18-05-12 00:05
HBH is a website? I thought it was just an IRC channel

I'm just kidding. =P

I would likely contribute too, but my time is always limited. It would be nice if it didn't feel like any effort on HBH was just going into a giant void. I think spy is touching on a method for avoiding that trap.


tip the cup, feed the fire, and forget about useless fucking hope. - a desolation song, agalloch
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

reaper4334
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Posts: 315
Location: Uk
Joined: 24.11.06
Rank:
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Posted on 18-05-12 00:57
AldarHawk wrote:
reaper4334 wrote:
Not to encourage more arguments...

Never start a post like this, unless you actually ARE trying to encourage one.

Perhaps that phrase will often encourage more arguments, but it is intended as a disclaimer for anybody willing enough to read it, to let them know that I'm not an expert with words and help them understand that what I'm about to say may be taken aggressively when it is not intended that way.

AldarHawk wrote:
Are you offering to help reaper?

Not exactly. I'm saying that if things are done right, nobody needs to offer to help, they can simply get everything they need together and work with it. There should be no need to offer help, that's not how a proper open-source project works.

AldarHawk wrote:
What are you willing to contribute? You going to program the framework? You going to use any specific language? What about Database systems?

I'm willing to contribute some code, some effort on issue tracking and writing in a wiki. I'll happily download some code and run some unit tests. I'll also happily hang around in a development based IRC channel offering help to people that want to help but aren't sure where to start.
Sure, once there's somewhere for me to write some code I'll help program the framework.
I'll use PHP, Python, Javascript and/or XHTML.
Database systems? MySQL.
...Do you see what I'm getting at? These are all the things I can use, as a contributor, and so these are the things I'm going to suggest using because I will be more useful. If every willing contributor made such a suggestion we'd be able to choose whatever the community would work best with, for work that the community will apparently be doing.

AldarHawk wrote:
These are not as easily discussed on a board where everyone thinks they are right and (from what I see a lot) no one can really come to a consensus about anything.

What happened to the voting system? Seems like that would be a good way to get a consensus.
Yeah, I agree people often do think they are right on this board. But, if we're asking what the community would prefer to use to work on the site, then do the community not know best? If the intention here is to have the community work on the site then why not have them choose the tools they know best, rather than choosing the tools that a smaller minority of people prefer, which leaves a lot more of a burden on their shoulders and presents the risk of the same thing happening again, where they have to leave for some reason and the project just gets left for somebody else to take and attempt to piece back together.

[Edit:] I'm sorry my posts all seem to end up so long, I get a little carried away and end up repeated myself, it seems.



i129.photobucket.com/albums/p210/reaper4334/reaper.png

www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png


Edited by reaper4334 on 18-05-12 00:57
reaper4334@hotmail.co.uk http://reaper4334.freehostia.com
Author

RE: Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH

AldarHawk
Member



Posts: 1690
Location: Canada
Joined: 26.01.06
Rank:
Hacker Level 1
Posted on 18-05-12 12:21
KvK wrote:
My opinion is that HBH is dying not due to a lack of features or it's flawed infrastructure, but instead because of it's community. The community is small and most new members come primarily for the challenges while rarely posting in the forum.

That is attempting to be brought to front. I do not fully think that this is the case, but I do agree partially. I think more of the reason the site is dying and the people are leaving is due to lack of administration of the forums and the site as a whole. That is what I am attempting to change.

KvK wrote:
I've seen two common types of hacking communities. One is a large community of script kiddies trying to learn to hack and the other is a small group of hackers that share information. In my opinion, HBH is somewhere in between these examples, and I feel that in order to become a stable community, the administrators have to decide on which type of people they want the site to cater to.

Why does it have to be clear cut as you are stating. Focus on either Script Kiddies OR Veteran Hackers. The hacking community as a whole is not clear cut, so why does a site that is geared towards them have to be? Our final goal is to increase the viewers and knowledge of the community. I have a few other items that I have in the back of my mind that I would like to introduce to EM, but until the site is rebuilt I will keep those to myself.

KvK wrote:
As it is now, HBH will die a slow death. If you guys want to attract new people, then you have to cater to the script kiddies. Otherwise, we are the only community that will be.

Once again I could not agree less with this opinion of yours, but thank you for sharing it. I believe that we need to cater to the entire hacking community as a whole. Try to bring in veterans as well as new players to get them thinking outside the box and not just in their one little area.

KvK wrote:
In regards to the renewal of HBH, I primarily agree with Spyware in that it should be built for the community by the community, however, I also understand AldarHawk's argument that we had our chance and chose inaction. It's like the child who wants the toy only when someone else wants to play with it. Personally, if the community were allowed to build the new HBH, I would contribute, but not likely by much. I'd like to say I would contribute a great deal to it's development, but I can't because I'm selfish and would likely put my own projects before HBH. If someone else is willing to shoulder the burden of having the site rebuilt under their management, then I say go for it, because I'm not going to do it and I doubt many others would either.

Thank you for this honest assessment. I am not stating that spyware is totally wrong in his statements. Far from it. I know him well and have for many years. But his is just one opinion of many that i have in other conversations.

reaper4334 wrote:
Not exactly. I'm saying that if things are done right, nobody needs to offer to help, they can simply get everything they need together and work with it. There should be no need to offer help, that's not how a proper open-source project works.


reaper4334 wrote:
I'll use PHP, Python, Javascript and/or XHTML.
Database systems? MySQL.

No expansion of your known languages? If you know Python and PHP Ruby should be simple enough to pick up.

If you want to help out, join in on the GitHub page and get forking and pulling.

As a final note, thank you all that have contributed to this discussion, and I hope more of you come and do. Let's get the entire thing hashed out and get HBH back to the ways of old.


Just ask Yahoo!Taboo! http://www.erikwestlake.com
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