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RE: I'm pro abortion

spyware
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Posted on 26-04-10 02:54
MoshBat wrote:
That works both ways. People think abortions are bad, and people thing drugs are bad. The same holds true vice versa.


Hey Mosh, you're doing that not-making-sense thing again.



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RE: I'm pro abortion


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Posted on 26-04-10 03:07
spyware wrote:
wolfmankurd wrote:
I think this was the original reasoning about making abortions legal? I'm not sure it's a good reason, it's like making drugs legal to save junkies


Most drugs should be legal. Just very/pretty expensive, but legal. (Also, applying the apparent negative connotation you colorized the word "drugs" with to abortions really, -really- undermines some of the basic thought presented in this thread. You shouldn't see abortions as a bad thing, ie. "like drugs".)


I see both sides of the argument, you know my thoughts on abortions I started this thread (hint: read the title) however, I see the logic of.

Abortions are bad u94; street abortions are specially bad.u94; legalise abortions.
and
Drugs are badu94; street drugs are especially badu94;legalise drugs.

My own opinion doesn't effect my ability to see it form both sides. People against abortions see abortions far worse than drugs, some see it as plain old murder.


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Posted on 26-04-10 10:29
wolfmankurd wrote:
Abortions are bad u94; street abortions are specially bad.u94; legalise abortions.

You lost me at the very first assumption there.


Drugs are badu94; street drugs are especially badu94;legalise drugs.

Same once again.


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Posted on 26-04-10 12:49
COM wrote:
wolfmankurd wrote:
Abortions are bad u94; street abortions are specially bad.u94; legalise abortions.

You lost me at the very first assumption there.


Drugs are badu94; street drugs are especially badu94;legalise drugs.

Same once again.


That's cause you are blinded by your own opinion if you'd like to further your self this is where to start as it's your major failing.




Edited by on 26-04-10 13:35
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RE: I'm pro abortion

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Posted on 26-04-10 13:50
wolfmankurd wrote:
COM wrote:
wolfmankurd wrote:
Abortions are bad u94; street abortions are specially bad.u94; legalise abortions.

You lost me at the very first assumption there.


Drugs are badu94; street drugs are especially badu94;legalise drugs.

Same once again.


That's cause you are blinded by your own opinion if you'd like to further your self this is where to start as it's your major failing.

Couldn't understand what you were trying to say. Were you saying that his habit of only thinking about his opinion is his failing or is the failing his personal opinion itself?


That applause I receive from y'all on posting this post would have gotten me drunk on power if I hadn't already been high on life.
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Posted on 26-04-10 14:22
goluhaque wrote:
wolfmankurd wrote:
COM wrote:
wolfmankurd wrote:
Abortions are bad u94; street abortions are specially bad.u94; legalise abortions.

You lost me at the very first assumption there.


Drugs are badu94; street drugs are especially badu94;legalise drugs.

Same once again.


That's cause you are blinded by your own opinion if you'd like to further your self this is where to start as it's your major failing.

Couldn't understand what you were trying to say. Were you saying that his habit of only thinking about his opinion is his failing or is the failing his personal opinion itself?

Well, obviously his opinion is just clearly better than my opinion and he felt insulted by my lack of realization about that point. Wait... I wasn't even expressing an opinion, I was wondering what would make drugs or abortions bad. Guess I'm the one who fails by wanting to hear his reason for that opinion.
Of course maybe he was just making an assumption without base as often done in math to get to a proof and just misinterpreted the fact that I misinterpreted it.


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RE: I'm pro abortion

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Posted on 27-04-10 01:51
Interesting thread so far ...

I'll start by saying that I'm very anti-abortion.

I don't believe it's wrong because I'm catholic (which I am) and the Pope said so, or even because I think it's murder. From my point of view, no one on earth knows exactly when life begins; therefore, we don't have the right to gamble with someone's life.

Someone said the first trimester should be the cut-off for abortion. Well what's the difference between one day after and one day before the end of the trimester? Is whatever is inside the womb any more or less alive because of one day? Does it make it somehow wrong because the baby is now 91 (approximating 3 months) days old instead of 90?

I understand entirely all of the arguments coming from the pro-abortion side. I get that people do not always have the financial stability or the knowledge and maturity to raise a child. I just think that since we don't know when life begins, it's never going to be alright to take that chance. Therefore the only solution here would be to keep your pants on until you can. It shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

Not trying to slam anyone, that's just the way I feel. Would love to continue the debate! :evil:
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Posted on 27-04-10 02:24
Twinkee wrote:
From my point of view, no one on earth knows exactly when life begins; therefore, we don't have the right to gamble with someone's life.

Would you care to elaborate on what exactly you mean by that? More specifically, I don't understand what you mean by the word "gamble", it's not Russian roulette.

Well what's the difference between one day after and one day before the end of the trimester?

Two days.

Is whatever is inside the womb any more or less alive because of one day?

Well, since it's a continuous growth into a (hopefully) fully functioning baby, yes.

Does it make it somehow wrong because the baby is now 91 (approximating 3 months) days old instead of 90?

As decided for the purpose of actually being able to maintain some sort of order, yes. This isn't strictly because something magically happens there, but rather because as with everything like this, we need a limit. Just to illustrate what I mean, think of a simple scenario like this: you put sugar in your coffee (or tea or whatever beverage, I don't care), you put it in one little crystal at a time. Will one tiny little part ever really make difference to you? Of course not. But we still stop at x amounts of sugar cubes because by the logic of one small part not making a difference, we could keep adding forever and claim that there was no difference. Mathematically speaking, it's like saying that a+1=a, I'm sure you can see the problem with this. So limits are almost never there because it magically makes a big difference, it's because we usually need a limit somewhere and make a rough estimate on where.

Not trying to slam anyone, that's just the way I feel. Would love to continue the debate! :evil:

Just saying, that evil smiley doesn't exactly make that first part believable.


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Posted on 27-04-10 02:49
1) Just what it means! I don't believe that we have the right to take the life of an unborn child. Now, since neither you nor I can establish with any certainty and validity that a child IS a live being at any point in time, I don't believe that an abortion should occur at any stage of pregnancy. It's a gamble because it's not for certain whether or not you're taking a life. Would anyone here really be alright with it if they knew for absolute fact that the baby was alive at the moment of conception? Taking a life is taking a life isn't it? Are we all equal or are some more equal than others?

2) How'd you get 2? My calculations came to -75.314. God damn calculators. Haha.

3) So in your opinion, you define life as a fully functioning baby. Is it therefore less human at 8 months than 9? What about premature births? Are those 7 month old births not really human babies? Is that breathing, squirming thing not a child? If I drown it, did I drown a pile of cells rather than a child? How do we establish when to make the cut-off? If it has developed hair? If you can tell its sex? If we're going by that, are people born without parts, or for that matter with deformities, not human or not alive? What about people who lost parts during life?

4) See above. Also, the coffee analogy somehow reminds me of PETA comparing KFC and chickens to Hitler and the Holocaust.

5) Yeah that occurred to me, I just like evil smilies.
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Posted on 27-04-10 03:07
Twinkee wrote:
1) Just what it means! I don't believe that we have the right to take the life of an unborn child. Now, since neither you nor I can establish with any certainty and validity that a child IS a live being at any point in time, I don't believe that an abortion should occur at any stage of pregnancy. It's a gamble because it's not for certain whether or not you're taking a life. Would anyone here really be alright with it if they knew for absolute fact that the baby was alive at the moment of conception? Taking a life is taking a life isn't it? Are we all equal or are some more equal than others?

Thank you, that cleared it up very nicely. However, now I find your argument strange because you present life as being objective. If you do not find it a subjective matter, then howcome you present a baby's humanity even being possible to be perceived differently? If it's subjective then it's not really any question of gambling, you either have the opinion that it is life or you have the opinion that it isn't life. On the other hand if it's objective, then it shouldn't be a problem with since things should be provably clear then.
Also, something being "more equal" is in every way a wrong term, something cannot be more equal, you mean superior.

3) So in your opinion, you define life as a fully functioning baby. Is it therefore less human at 8 months than 9? What about premature births? Are those 7 month old births not really human babies? Is that breathing, squirming thing not a child? If I drown it, did I drown a pile of cells rather than a child? How do we establish when to make the cut-off? If it has developed hair? If you can tell its sex? If we're going by that, are people born without parts, or for that matter with deformities, not human or not alive? What about people who lost parts during life?

I never defined life as a fully functioning baby. Furthermore, my stance on this is irrelevant. I'm just curious about what you have to say and presented an answer that is technically correct according to the presentation you made of a child's life developing.

the coffee analogy somehow reminds me of PETA comparing KFC and chickens to Hitler and the Holocaust.

I merely made one comparison that was neutral in nature, if you'd like we could compare it to stealing a penny being the same as stealing billions of dollars, or murdering one person being the same as the holocaust you mentioned. Whichever the comparison, the point in it remains: while the minor change at the moment may not seem like big of a deal, the border is there because we feel a need to have it and we know that it will make a difference in the long run.


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Posted on 27-04-10 14:04
COM wrote:
Well, obviously his opinion is just clearly better than my opinion and he felt insulted by my lack of realization about that point. Wait... I wasn't even expressing an opinion, I was wondering what would make drugs or abortions bad. Guess I'm the one who fails by wanting to hear his reason for that opinion.
Of course maybe he was just making an assumption without base as often done in math to get to a proof and just misinterpreted the fact that I misinterpreted it.


I was annoyed that you took it to be my opinion. The post (perhaps though only in the context of my other posts) makes clear that I was simply saying I understand the logic behind "the abortions are bad but back street abortions are dangerous so we should to legalise it" thought train. This would be okay but your douchey reply got on my nerves.

I don't think abortions are bad that is why I created a thread titled "I'm pro abortion" and said I think we're not having enough of them because people associate some sort of stigma with it.

Just an FYI I do think some drugs are bad, I see no perks to crack use but not all "drugs" are like crack.



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Posted on 27-04-10 17:29
No matter where you are in the US, there is always going to be a pregnancy clinic near by and they will offer free testing. Also planned parenthood will give you a year of birth control pills, other contraception to try out, and emergency contraception (morning after pill).

There are a lot of herbal ways to force abortion, like pennyroyal tea or everclear (babies have weak livers). There's so many ways to force abortion, people do it unintentionally all the time. Honestly I think an herbal abortion sounds a bit more humane than breaking the skull and sucking the brain out with a vacuum.

I think US medical care is ranked over 30th. Ain't no free lunch here.

The biggest benefit for legalizing it's always going to be dangerous and the women do need medical observation.

I fucking hate politics. I'm done here.


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Posted on 27-04-10 17:31
maug wrote:
No matter where you are in the US, there is always going to be a pregnancy clinic near by and they will offer free testing. Also planned parenthood will give you a year of birth control pills, other contraception to try out, and emergency contraception (morning after pill).

There are a lot of herbal ways to force abortion, like pennyroyal tea or everclear (babies have weak livers). There's so many ways to force abortion, people do it unintentionally all the time. Honestly I think an herbal abortion sounds a bit more humane than breaking the skull and sucking the brain out with a vacuum.

I think US medical care is ranked over 30th. Ain't no free lunch here.

The biggest benefit for legalizing it's always going to be dangerous and the women do need medical observation.

I fucking hate politics. I'm done here.


herbal ways like everclear? HAHAHAH


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Posted on 27-04-10 17:43
alright, organic or natural.


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Posted on 27-04-10 20:35
@ COM

Yes, one's opinion can be subjective. You can believe that an unborn child is alive, dead, inanimate, a squirrel, or whatever else. Now, aside from not being a squirrel, we cannot say without a shadow of a doubt what an unborn child is, and when it becomes something else. What you believe it to be doesn't change what it actually is though.

You say that it isn't gambling if life is subjective. Well, it is one's opinion on what is life that is subjective -- the reality of it is not. It either is alive or it isn't. My belief that it is alive doesn't make it alive, and someone else's belief that it isn't doesn't make it not alive. I'm merely trying to stress that we do not know when life begins, and therefore we should not take the risk of depriving someone of life.

About "more equal": Have you read Animal Farm? If you have you should know what I meant by that sentence.

When I said you defined life as a fully functioning baby, that's what I interpreted this as, although I see that that may have been drawing conclusions:

Is whatever is inside the womb any more or less alive because of one day?

Well, since it's a continuous growth into a (hopefully) fully functioning baby, yes.


Finally:

I merely made one comparison that was neutral in nature, if you'd like we could compare it to stealing a penny being the same as stealing billions of dollars, or murdering one person being the same as the holocaust you mentioned. Whichever the comparison, the point in it remains: while the minor change at the moment may not seem like big of a deal, the border is there because we feel a need to have it and we know that it will make a difference in the long run.


I do understand that, I just enjoy giving people a hard time. However, what in your opinion, is the purpose and reason behind having the limit? And what is the "difference" in the long run?




Edited by Twinkee on 27-04-10 20:37
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Posted on 28-04-10 08:45
MoshBat wrote:
maug wrote:
alright, organic or natural.

Did you know both Heroin and Alcohol are organic, and natural?


Heroin is not natural. It's refined/processed opium, that has been extracted from a plant. And organic only means that it is made of a carbon chain.




Edited by on 28-04-10 08:47
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Posted on 28-04-10 21:19
@wolfie:
I never meant for a "douchey" answer. I maintain that your post wasn't all that well presented, but I did rush reading it.

@Twinkee:
While truth is truth, everything in your entire life is technically just what you believe it to be. So it is completely irrelevant what the truth is at the moment, what matters to anyone is what they believe it to be as to them it is truth. I'd say you're taking such a safe stance with your answer because you're simply afraid of directly or even indirectly being a part of something that you're afraid could be horrible. You don't want to risk the thought that you somehow might have blood on your hands, but don't want to risk an ignorant opinion either that is just based on emotions.
I would apologise for potentially stepping out of line with that, but I would reckon you to be more amused by it than upset.

I have not read "Animal Farm", I saw a movie they made based on it though, it was actually very nice. Also, not in English. So obviously I don't know what you meant by that sentence, but considering the context now I guess I can just say fair enough.

Now finally, based on this: "I just enjoy giving people a hard time", I don't see your question as anything you genuinely would care about and you should stop being such a cheeky little bitch. Especially as I already told you that my opinion on this matter is irrelevant. In fact, I think it's obvious that I don't believe in humans reproducing at all and thus can't have an opinion on this matter.
But, I'll give you an equally pointless answer to your second question.
We first define the smallest amount as 1 and for the sake of argument, another amount X as X>huge which is to represent repetition. This gives the difference of 1*X-1=more than huge minus one. In case you're bad at math, that's a pretty big fucking difference.


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Posted on 28-04-10 22:37
MoshBat wrote:
maug wrote:
MoshBat wrote:
maug wrote:
alright, organic or natural.

Did you know both Heroin and Alcohol are organic, and natural?


Heroin is not natural. It's refined/processed opium, that has been extracted from a plant. And organic only means that it is made of a carbon chain.

Purified. You can chomp on the poppies and still get an, albeit mild, effect.

it's esterifmacated of the natural stuff


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Posted on 28-04-10 23:23
MoshBat wrote:
I'm assuming that you meant to write an actual word, but I'll try to answer anyhoo.
Natural stuff like Codine and Morphine?


Ester is R-C=O-O-R
In heroin it's CH3-C=O-O- that's ester using acetic acid and the result is an acetyl group.
Heroin is what happens when you add two of these acetyl groups to the natural stuff.

I don't think you get any heroin in nature.




Edited by on 28-04-10 23:23
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RE: I'm pro abortion

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Posted on 29-04-10 03:36
@COM

Really dude? Calm down.

Furthermore, the entire stance that I have promoted and attempted to explain in this thread is meant to be a compromise that would persuade one who doesn't believe in God or life at conception to oppose abortion. When arguing abortion, one is pitted against (generally) those who don't believe in the two aforementioned subjects. Since they don't believe in those, arguing with logic based in them will obviously have no effect, and rightly shouldn't. Therefore, the argument must be brought to a different level on which everyone agrees. I would seriously hope that everyone here agrees that murder, when not in the form of defense, is morally or at least humanly wrong. Yes, defense is permissible. That is another topic, however.

Yes, it is a,"ride the fence, don't piss anyone off," argument. It was not developed out of fear of having an ignorant opinion, however. I merely do not intend to base my argument solely on religion and beliefs. I believe in life at conception, but I do not believe that everyone has to; conversely, I should not have to believe that life does not occur at conception which is what current (American) law is essentially saying. This is especially outrageous if my tax dollars are going to government funded abortions.

This whole argument is pointless anyways, as it could be solved at step one if anyone in the world actually took responsibility for their actions. Instead of, "Uh-oh, knocked my girl up. We can't raise this kid, let's just get rid of it," we should be saying: "Hey, I can't raise a family. I should probably wait until I can."

Then again, I'd hate to be burdened by having to be responsible. I hear that's kinda hard.


And by the way COM, this is a debate so I don't really care if you think your "opinion" is irrelevant or not. You're making assertions and I disagree with them, and I would like you to explain your reasoning so that I can further support why I believe that my view is correct.

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