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RE: God rank to easy?

yours31f
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Posted on 20-10-08 20:28
moshbat wrote:
Nah, I hand it to the guy, he has been doing loads better recently.


Thanks.


Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 00:42
And I have been gone for 2 days and suddenly yours31f's posts are mediocre to good?

Maybe with the upcoming International Talk Like Sarah Palin Day people are thinking differently. Hmmm...


"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
~Albert Einstein~


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 02:54
fashizzlepop wrote:
And I have been gone for 2 days and suddenly yours31f's posts are mediocre to good?

Maybe with the upcoming International Talk Like Sarah Palin Day people are thinking differently. Hmmm...


Lmao!

Well... Part of his sig reads,

" Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

I must agree with that statement.....


And I must also point out the the "[/center]" tag is not needed; I'm not supposed to see it without viewing the source...


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Posted on 21-10-08 02:57
I must also point out that you contributed nothing useful to this otherwise useful thread. Get together with your useless buddies and go have a sleepover at Zone-H.


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 03:08
Zephyr_Pure wrote:
I must also point out that you contributed nothing useful to this otherwise useful thread. Get together with your useless buddies and go have a sleepover at Zone-H.


Ewww... not awesome....

Well... I read a thread a damn long time ago... it talked about basing everything on percent instead of points.... That does sound like a better idea...

But then again it has its weaknesses....

Someone could just go and get all the javascript, 'cause they are the easiest... and then all the stegs... and all the other easy challenges and look like they're pretty good... and everytime a new challenge was added you would have to change everything...

Points and challenges though, is a horrible thing to base skill on...
But still, they're funn......


I guess just adding on a few ranks would be best..... And keep it based on points instead of percentage?

What UberOn said... I agree 100%...
"HBH -> More (good) staff -> Content with higher quality -> More activity -> HBH++"



But where do we get our "More (good) staff" and "Content with higher quality"?

It would be up to all us members to provide it.....


Why didn't we think of this long ago?


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Posted on 21-10-08 03:21
Night_Stalker wrote:
But then again it has its weaknesses....

Someone could just go and get all the javascript, 'cause they are the easiest... and then all the stegs... and all the other easy challenges and look like they're pretty good... and everytime a new challenge was added you would have to change everything...

People do that already. I fail to see how that's different from now. Also, every time a new challenge was added, everything WOULDN'T have to be changed. That's the whole point. It's a dynamic total.


Points and challenges though, is a horrible thing to base skill on...
But still, they're funn......

We're not basing skills on them... Don't infer.


I guess just adding on a few ranks would be best..... And keep it based on points instead of percentage?

I'd hate to base a site decision upon an "I guess" opinion.


But where do we get our "More (good) staff" and "Content with higher quality"?

It would be up to all us members to provide it.....

Why didn't we think of this long ago?

1. Somewhere where people aren't as lazy and loathe to put in effort.
2. Then, set the example.
3. Because you were too busy with lawlz and zomgz and yours31f-bashing comments?

This is a prime example of what has to stop if we are to make a real community out of this place. Jokes and all are fun but, when it comes down to it, we're here to learn something. When we get new members, who do they learn how to act from? The current members. If the current members are being pathetic, moronic wastes of DB storage, what do you think the new members will be?

Spend more time speaking in threads that discuss real community issues and concerns, and less time throwing in your lame 2 cents in a bashing thread. See what kind of difference that makes in just a short time.


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Posted on 21-10-08 04:54
I think it is clear who is of high quality around here. I believe it was just the other day I was suggesting that we have a moderator who is actively on and can help in editing out the shit in the forums and then came along Zephyr as an admin. There are other high character people here that do a good job without being a staff off some sort.

1.) Uber0n == Always offers a helping hand if your serious about learning.

2.) Moshbat == Always gives good advice.

3.) Spyware == Helps others realize mistakes maybe they are to blind to see.

These are only a few of the good people I see on here everyday trying to make this a real community. I have been on here maybe a year or so and they have been steadfast throughout.

P.S. I know this has nothing to do with the ranking subject but I thought I would interject about the quality of personal here.


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Posted on 21-10-08 07:09
I agree you.Especially Uber0n.He's goodSmile


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Posted on 21-10-08 12:49
What ever makes you happy kieran. Im just a doofus that has nothing better to say.






Edited by on 21-10-08 13:02
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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 15:07
<offtopic>Edited by Zephyr_Pure on 21-10-08 07:02 lol</offtopic>

<onTopic> I think ubr0n would be a good choice, but i have also seen many others, as far as the challenge ranks go, I kinda like how it's set up now. Give people to strive for, and when you do, you can feel accomplished.


Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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Posted on 21-10-08 15:21
yours31f wrote:
I think ubr0n would be a good choice, but i have also seen many others, as far as the challenge ranks go, I kinda like how it's set up now. Give people to strive for, and when you do, you can feel accomplished.

He would be a good choice... as would a number of other people. Ultimately, it boils down to the two things I listed in my previous post: activity and devotion. I can almost guarantee that those will be the criteria that determine any new staff.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with how the challenge ranks are; that much is true. For those people that feel ranks should accurately reflect an amount of completion, though, the current system is already, and will become more, inadequate. To be completely honest, restructuring the rank system to use percentages to accurately reflect that is only part of the solution.

The rest of the solution will involve heavily moderating (or possibly completely removing) challenge articles. Right now, we have a number of "God" rank people that have very little actual knowledge; granted, this is a choice that they have made by taking the easy way for completing challenges, but it should not be a choice that is promoted or endorsed in any way. Unfortunately, this is not a solution that can happen overnight. For now, the challenge articles will persist and only have obvious spoilers removed. When/if this solution does occur, it will have to be a widespread change; there is no incremental way to do it.

<OT>I love how this thread moves from useful topic to useful topic. I may end up stickying this one if this trend continues.</OT>


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Posted on 21-10-08 15:48
Zephyr_Pure wrote:

He would be a good choice... as would a number of other people. Ultimately, it boils down to the two things I listed in my previous post: activity and devotion. I can almost guarantee that those will be the criteria that determine any new staff.


Yes, the only problem I see with ubr0n, as you mentioned, would be activity.
Granted, he is "active" but, the question is, How active?

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with how the challenge ranks are; that much is true. For those people that feel ranks should accurately reflect an amount of completion, though, the current system is already, and will become more, inadequate. To be completely honest, restructuring the rank system to use percentages to accurately reflect that is only part of the solution.

I agree with you; However, do we strive for a system to accurately depict challenge points that so many people say are not a sign of skill. I do not see the utility of maintaining a system that would reflect something we don't use. Maybe an update sure but, why reinvent the wheel?

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
The rest of the solution will involve heavily moderating (or possibly completely removing) challenge articles. Right now, we have a number of "God" rank people that have very little actual knowledge; granted, this is a choice that they have made by taking the easy way for completing challenges, but it should not be a choice that is promoted or endorsed in any way. Unfortunately, this is not a solution that can happen overnight. For now, the challenge articles will persist and only have obvious spoilers removed. When/if this solution does occur, it will have to be a widespread change; there is no incremental way to do it.

The articles take away a fundamental part of hacking. Finding the exploits. One reason that it is so easy to get to the god rank, is the massive amount of spoilers in both articles, and the forums. I believe that as you go you should be able to get help, But you should not be spoon fed.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
<OT>I love how this thread moves from useful topic to useful topic. I may end up stickying this one if this trend continues.</OT>

I would have no objections.


Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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Posted on 21-10-08 16:27
yours31f wrote:
Yes, the only problem I see with ubr0n, as you mentioned, would be activity.
Granted, he is "active" but, the question is, How active?

Ask that question concerning all the suggestions... then, you see the dilemma. The few remaining have other issues that would prevent them from contributing in that way, and I will leave it up to them to explain them as they see fit. It is not my place to do so.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with how the challenge ranks are; that much is true. For those people that feel ranks should accurately reflect an amount of completion, though, the current system is already, and will become more, inadequate. To be completely honest, restructuring the rank system to use percentages to accurately reflect that is only part of the solution.

yours31f wrote:
I agree with you; However, do we strive for a system to accurately depict challenge points that so many people say are not a sign of skill.

Underlines are for emphasis. The percentage-based system would augment the current "# out of #" ranking by assigning a challenge rank that makes sense with this. Precision with the ranks is the only goal of such a change. It doesn't now, nor will it ever, indicate skill; this was never implied.

yours31f wrote:
The articles take away a fundamental part of hacking. Finding the exploits. One reason that it is so easy to get to the god rank, is the massive amount of spoilers in both articles, and the forums. I believe that as you go you should be able to get help, But you should not be spoon fed.

I agree, but there need to be standards on how much (and what kind of) help is sufficient without crossing that line. Those standards need to be created by the people that object to the content as it is. I have no objection because, ultimately, I very rarely used the forums for challenge help and I may have read one or two challenge articles (but I stay away from those that imply spoilers). For me, I get what I should from the challenges; others need to be led more firmly, though. I still do not believe that it is "spoonfeeding"; however, it is dangerously close.

I am genuinely impressed: You are continuing in a more useful way, as others have said on your behalf. Keep up the good work! No one's voice is too insignificant to make a change in the community... you just have to have the community in mind (not yours31f) when you propose a change / suggestion.


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 17:35
Zephyr_Pure wrote:
Ask that question concerning all the suggestions... then, you see the dilemma. The few remaining have other issues that would prevent them from contributing in that way, and I will leave it up to them to explain them as they see fit. It is not my place to do so.

I feel this way, let people be submitted, then if they are interested, Let them make their own case.


Zephyr_Pure wrote:
Underlines are for emphasis. The percentage-based system would augment the current "# out of #" ranking by assigning a challenge rank that makes sense with this. Precision with the ranks is the only goal of such a change. It doesn't now, nor will it ever, indicate skill; this was never implied.

I misunderstood. It makes sense to see it that way, but is it really necessary? For this to be done it would put other projects on hold so what I'm asking is, What would the priority of this be?


Zephyr_Pure wrote:
I agree, but there need to be standards on how much (and what kind of) help is sufficient without crossing that line. Those standards need to be created by the people that object to the content as it is. I have no objection because, ultimately, I very rarely used the forums for challenge help and I may have read one or two challenge articles (but I stay away from those that imply spoilers). For me, I get what I should from the challenges; others need to be led more firmly, though. I still do not believe that it is "spoonfeeding"; however, it is dangerously close.

I can see how you would feel this way but. I still feel there is just too much in the site that gives too much away.


Zephyr_Pure wrote:
I am genuinely impressed: You are continuing in a more useful way, as others have said on your behalf. Keep up the good work! No one's voice is too insignificant to make a change in the community... you just have to have the community in mind (not yours31f) when you propose a change / suggestion.


I laughed, But seriously, I have been making an attempt to be more and more useful to this community. I know that i was just pestering the community before, but the more i gained from this site, the more i feel i should give back.



Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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Posted on 21-10-08 17:44
Zephyr_Pure wrote:

I agree, but there need to be standards on how much (and what kind of) help is sufficient without crossing that line. Those standards need to be created by the people that object to the content as it is. I have no objection because, ultimately, I very rarely used the forums for challenge help and I may have read one or two challenge articles (but I stay away from those that imply spoilers). For me, I get what I should from the challenges; others need to be led more firmly, though. I still do not believe that it is "spoonfeeding"; however, it is dangerously close.


I truly do like the community of help given here at HBH, however to be blatantly honest as a newbie in hacking, I could pretty much find all the answers to my questions without really asking unless I truly needed it. It took me a while to get the hang of how things go, but I'd like to think I caught on quick enough for my own needs.

I believe that every part of the community is essential in the learning process, even with answers being "spoon-fed" because the true makings of a hacker is the level of curiosity and the want for knowledge not simply an answer. While I feel there are always going to be room for improvements I believe a crucial amount of responsibility should be left on the learning. Those who seek knowledge can find it all here, as well as those seeking answers can find the answers, but most will be too dumb to interpret them and thus the onslaught of flaming.

I believe it was Futility that said you will be flamed and you will like it?

8/10 whenever I have read a thread where a person was being flamed they deserved it. More so, 9/10 a person believed they were being flamed and they weren't. HBH is suppose to be a training ground, and one of the most important aspects of hacking I have come to learn is the sense of community. Those who cannot conduct themselves in the community get flamed and hazed until either they do better, shut up, or leave.

Point being, the road to "God" here truly can be interpreted by the discussions and amount of help people offer, not the points. I hardly ever pay attention to ranks, I knew right off the bat when I read the threads who was worth talking to and who wasn't. I think the better the community becomes the less willing people will be to give away spoilers in articles and then the new recruits won't ask for too much help. They'll all learn it is merely a learning process that must be traveled.

I put the challenges on hold while I get more familiar with JavaScript and answer a few of my own questions. Who can call themselves a hacker if they piggyback off of the work of others? Grin


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Posted on 21-10-08 17:46
yours31f wrote:
I feel this way, let people be submitted, then if they are interested, Let them make their own case.

yours31f wrote:
Seriously, I have been making an attempt to be more and more useful to this community. I know that i was just pestering the community before, but the more i gained from this site, the more i feel i should give back.

I love using quote rearrangement to illustrate my points. Why should they be given a chance to make a case for themselves? Your actions show your merits, and the mindset you demonstrated in that second quote is what would get them to the "submission" portion at all, if there even was one. Anyone can try really hard to be good for a position they are nominated for, but they can prove they'd be good for it by doing it when it's not required of them.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
I misunderstood. It makes sense to see it that way, but is it really necessary? For this to be done it would put other projects on hold so what I'm asking is, What would the priority of this be?

It's a low-priority change. It's also a somewhat quick change, so that could push it in front of more involved efforts.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
I can see how you would feel this way but. I still feel there is just too much in the site that gives too much away.

Agreed. I have a few ideas on that, which I will be adding to the list of changes I am going to spearhead -- starting this week.


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 19:04
Zephyr_Pure wrote:
Your actions show your merits, and the mindset you demonstrated in that second quote is what would get them to the "submission" portion at all, if there even was one. Anyone can try really hard to be good for a position they are nominated for, but they can prove they'd be good for it by doing it when it's not required of them.

And that is what would get them nominated.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:


It's a low-priority change. It's also a somewhat quick change, so that could push it in front of more involved efforts.

So basically let someone work on this in their "spare" time?

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
Agreed. I have a few ideas on that, which I will be adding to the list of changes I am going to spearhead -- starting this week.

I would like to see this list. Just out of curiosity.


Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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Posted on 21-10-08 19:42
Sangeki Rein wrote:
<lots of stuff>

Yes, ideally, the new members would learn to learn, so to speak. It's just getting to that point that is the murky part. The rest of your points were valid but, ultimately, I think you were arguing more in favor of forcing the mentality through the removal of (or influence to not provide) spoilers... which ultimately made your statement somewhat confusing. Hopefully, those ideas will contribute to the overall goal.

yours31f wrote:
And that is what would get them nominated.

Exactly... hence, they would not be given a chance to prove their worth after they're nominated (again, if this were to ever happen).

yours31f wrote:
So basically let someone work on this in their "spare" time?

That's the plan. We'll just have to see what developing crew HBH has in the near future.

Zephyr_Pure wrote:
Agreed. I have a few ideas on that, which I will be adding to the list of changes I am going to spearhead -- starting this week.

yours31f wrote:
I would like to see this list. Just out of curiosity.

I don't have the list nearby and, as I haven't prioritized the items yet, it would be unfair of me to present the full list in a way that would lead people to believe that they will happen... whether soon or at all. When community input is needed on a particular item, I will most likely post and harness that creative energy. For now, though, the top items on my list are already clear and I am already working on them. Those changes will be known as I complete them. Trust me, I am using my experiences from the past couple years here to prioritize that list.

As for the article / forum spoiler problem, there are a couple solutions as I see it:

1. Remove all challenge-related content from the articles only, or from both.
2. Remove Real, Timed, Pen Test, and Logical content from the articles only and give these challenges greater point rewards.

There may be more possibilities but, for now, these seem to be the most likely. I am in favor of the second option, as it seems to be the perfect "middle-of-the-road" solution. Challenges based upon essential concepts should be worth less, have accompanying hints, and teach basic concepts that will be used on the real-life challenge simulations. This would cater to the new and intermediate members, while also encouraging learning to apply the knowledge gained to the more realistic (and more difficult) challenges. I threw in Logical because, really, you don't need spoilers on how to use your brain.

Thoughts are welcome on this.




Edited by on 21-10-08 19:46
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Posted on 21-10-08 20:03
Zephyr_Pure wrote:
2. Remove Real, Timed, Pen Test, and Logical content from the articles only and give these challenges greater point rewards.

I think we should remove all except the basics. Other than that, you should learn the advanced concepts, not get spoilers.


Debugging is what programmers do to beta software to make it take up more room on your hard drive if it is running too efficiently.


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RE: God rank to easy?

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Posted on 21-10-08 20:06
Zephyr_Pure wrote:
As for the article / forum spoiler problem, there are a couple solutions as I see it:

1. Remove all challenge-related content from the articles only, or from both.
2. Remove Real, Timed, Pen Test, and Logical content from the articles only and give these challenges greater point rewards.

There may be more possibilities but, for now, these seem to be the most likely. I am in favor of the second option, as it seems to be the perfect "middle-of-the-road" solution. Challenges based upon essential concepts should be worth less, have accompanying hints, and teach basic concepts that will be used on the real-life challenge simulations. This would cater to the new and intermediate members, while also encouraging learning to apply the knowledge gained to the more realistic (and more difficult) challenges. I threw in Logical because, really, you don't need spoilers on how to use your brain.

Thoughts are welcome on this.


I totally agree. However it seems to me that removing all the realistic challenge will cause absolute collapse in forums, because to be honest I think some of them are little too unrealistic to be solved the proper way, without any hint. And if you did so, instead of articles, there would be sooner or later developed 'database' of forum posts that would give the hints out. What I would suggest is remove all the articles for the challenges mentioned above, but for realistic challenges, I would provide some general help, like a general FAQ for each challenge, where you could check for example if there is any hint for one particular thing, without spoiling the rest... I know it might still undernine the standart a little, but I think it is a good compromise, it will prevent all the people starting hundred new threads a day, and avoid most of the 'point hunters'


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