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A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 07-11-08 16:50
I will explain my situation to you guys. Ever since I was a kid I've loved to be around computers day in and day out. All the way back to the methodus 2.0 days that got me and my family banned from AOL lol...I loved them long before then...But I believe that was the first time I became interested in security.

Anyway I'm a little bit older now and finding a career is something I cant waste anymore time doing. Right now im inbetween jobs. I use to sell cars for a local dealership here in Wichita, but with the way the economy is going right now its not the best time to be a car salesman if your hearts not in it. As you can imagine being inbetween jobs means you have just tons of cash to go out and blow on all these nice new things and equipment. (sarcasim, I hope you understand. Grin )

Since money is tight, I wanted to ask you guys how you became what you are today? Did you go to college? Did you go to a trade school? Or did you just go out on your own and take the certifications??? Obviously doing the certifications would be the cheapest route to go although without any training I've heard these tests would probably be failed over and over before completion. Trade school could cost anywhere from $10,000 - $15,000 for nothing but certifications to show for in the end. And College...Well I havn't been to school in so long I've already decided I want a job in the computer industry to reduce stress before I try to go to college. Not to mention im BROKE!!! My true dream would be to own my own pen testing company or something along the lines of security evaluation. Security is my main forte. Perhaps finaly learn Arabic from my Dad and join an agency or something.

Aside from all that, this is where you guys come in. You guys have already been through the process and you all know very well what may or may not of been the easiest route or more effective now that you have gotten where you are today. So please share with me your stories and how you became who you are today. Any advice would help. I just need somewhere to start....on a budget...lol.

Thank you to anyone who reads this.
Author

RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posts: 4192
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Posted on 07-11-08 17:09
We haven't walked the path.

Anyway; to answer your main question "How do I learn?".

Internet. Everything you'll need to get knowledge about pentesting and whatnot, it's on the internet. Browse, talk, learn, contribute.

If you're serious about setting up a company you'll need some financial backup. If you're serious about joining an "agency", you'll need a lot more.

Good luck.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 07-11-08 17:29
spyware wrote:
We haven't walked the path.

Anyway; to answer your main question "How do I learn?".

Internet. Everything you'll need to get knowledge about pentesting and whatnot, it's on the internet. Browse, talk, learn, contribute.

If you're serious about setting up a company you'll need some financial backup. If you're serious about joining an "agency", you'll need a lot more.

Good luck.



Thank you for your response, I'm not saying this is a 1 year plan though. Ofcourse I would be a lot older and a lot more experienced by the time I accomplished either one of those goals. I guess what I'm asking is, those of you who are in the computer industry, what were your first steps???
Author

RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 07-11-08 17:34
The first steps are usually the ones that lead you to the stairs. Really, part of the "path" is finding it.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 07-11-08 20:57
AshraZ wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is, those of you who are in the computer industry, what were your first steps???

I started doing a temporary job at a warehouse that packaged computers while I was looking for a better job. When I found the "better job", it was working at a company that did contract-based PC repair for a large computer manufacturer. I started on my Associates in Computer Networking around the same time as I started that job. Finished the Associates degree and moved on to another job (as a Network Admin for a small-ish company, then a larger one). Finished my Bachelors degree in Computer Programming and moved into a job as a PHP developer.

So, to answer your question in short: Go to school and get your foot in the door at whatever entry-level position you can get. Certs are good, but degrees and experience are golden.


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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 07-11-08 23:56
AshraZ wrote:
...you all know very well what may or may not of been the easiest route or more effective now that you have gotten where you are today. So please share with me your stories and how you became who you are today. Any advice would help.


Well I am on the path, maybe just a bit ahead of you, but not out of sight. Aside from everyone who makes getting into this really simple i.e. 1. get a job 2. get a degree 3. now your done. I think it helps more to put things in perspective. So, read this,

Learn to program in ten years. (I know you want to pen test, but I'm sure your going to have to know how to program a bit.)

http://norvig.com. . .


I just need somewhere to start....on a budget...lol.

Thank you to anyone who reads this.


Read all the e books you can FOR FREE. And I would not make yourself learn something but instead read general stuff and you'll find yourself learning something you enjoy. Start at Wikipedia. Then read one of the books referenced at the bottom.

I am a web developer and am being paid to further a hobby I got when I was in middle school.

So this can lead to a start, I plan on advancing much further in security too, but the first mistake you could probably make is posting this, reading the replies and never coming back to HBH. There is a wealth of information and encouragement that can be found here if your not a moron; so stick around.

P.S. you don't have to go to college.




Edited by on 08-11-08 00:08
Author

RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

Uber0n
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Posted on 08-11-08 00:36
I'm studying to become a civil enginner in Computer Science at the Chalmers University of Technology.

Since I live in Sweden, going to university doesn't cost anything - in fact the state pays every student about $400 per month just for studying Wink


img230.imageshack.us/img230/724/uber0nsig3hj6.gif
http://uber0n.web. . .
Nope http://uber0n.webs.com/
Author

RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 00:46
Uber0n wrote:
I'm studying to become a civil enginner in Computer Science at the Chalmers University of Technology.

Since I live in Sweden, going to university doesn't cost anything - in fact the state pays every student about $400 per month just for studying Wink


How legit is that degree? This is not a flame...

I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states...




Edited by on 08-11-08 00:49
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 08-11-08 01:23
whitecell wrote:
How legit is that degree? This is not a flame...

I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states...


You're a freaking idiot. That -is- a flame.

The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in. Of course the "States" are employing people from other countries, why do you think you can buy a twenty-pack of noodles for just 8 cents? That's Chinese import and Mexican register man making sure you visit your precious walmarts.

You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s

Edited by spyware on 08-11-08 01:27
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 01:49
spyware wrote:
whitecell wrote:
How legit is that degree? This is not a flame...

I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states...


You're a freaking idiot. That -is- a flame.


Well you interpreted it as a flame, even after I stated it was not my intention to flame this person. It was not intended to be offensive and I showed an example where accreditation is not as universal. It was in no way idiotic to show my curiosity.


The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in.


umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. Grin Paying for their citizens to go to college only proves that the country's leaders have different ideas of responsibility for their citizens to gain an education.


Of course the "States" are employing people from other countries, why do you think you can buy a twenty-pack of noodles for just 8 cents? That's Chinese import and Mexican register man making sure you visit your precious walmarts.


I do not eat twenty packs of noodles nor do I support Walmart. Importing noodles and allowing immigrants to work in Walmart has nothing to do with high level accreditation of very technical trades. You can buy noodles in any country, and most likely be a checker in every country, but you cannot be a doctor in every country by simply being 'you'. It takes a degree and a specific one from a legitimate accredited learning institution. I WAS NOT flaming the country he was from you moron.

If he can get paid to earn a degree and it is universally accepted I would be more than eager to freaking move their and gain citizenship. :evil:


You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty.


This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand. Pfft




Edited by on 08-11-08 02:15
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 08-11-08 02:12
whitecell wrote:
Well you interpreted it as a flame, even after I stated it was not my intention to flame this person. It was not intended to be offensive and I showed an example where accreditation is not as universal. It was in no way idiotic to show my curiosity. :angry:


When I said "That is a flame" I meant me, not you. I could've made that clearer, I apologize. I'm sure your post wasn't meant as a flame, it was, however, idiotic.

umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. Grin

'scuse me. Dying from laughter over here. Anyway, lets continue.


Paying for their citizens to go to college only proves that the country's leaders have different ideas for responsibility for their citizens to gain an education.


Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!

I do not eat twenty packs of noodles nor do I support Walmart. Importing noodles and allowing immigrants to work in Walmart has nothing to do with high level accreditation of very technical trades. You can buy noodles in any country, and most likely be a checker in every country, but you cannot be a doctor in every country by simply being 'you'. It takes a degree and a specific one from a legitimate accredited learning institution. I WAS NOT flaming the country he was from you moron.


Well well well... Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?

Listen, ass, America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors. Understand me now?


This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand. Pfft


You're right about one thing; I don't fully understand your nation. Hey, you were the guys electing Bush for president, remember? You are the ones waging wars and whatnot. What's that I hear, peacekeaping? Yeah, right. Peace. That's what I've been seeing on the news lately.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s

Edited by spyware on 08-11-08 02:15
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 02:38
spyware wrote:
Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!

Oh woe is us, why did you reveal our great shame to the world? We pale in comparison to the greatest country in the world so why doth you drag our misbehaviour out into the spotlight? Higher education and knowledge doth befall only upon those who prove their worth with money as currency and not work and diligence, those are the words of our mother nature whom wisely decided this at the beginning of time.


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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 08-11-08 02:49
Okay okay, I was generalizing. America isn't all that bad. Sometimes. I do think, however, some of my points address certain truths, and they are valid to a(nother) certain extent.

I hope the democratic change in your country will 'fix' those truths. I really do.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s

Edited by spyware on 08-11-08 02:53
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 03:02
spyware wrote:
..., it was, however, idiotic.


It was not idiotic it was a very reasonable question, I merely put 'this is not a flame' because it is hard to express inquisitiveness on a forum. You are not supporting any points you are making and are wrong on many things, such as:


'scuse me. Dying from laughter over here. Anyway, lets continue.


1. I do not know how you measure success, but in the real world it is not measured by your emotional ethical success gauge in your pea sized brain.


Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!


2. What does this even mean? (rhetorical question) - and I like how before you edited it you put Norway... You can not take a couple cities out of a country that is almost as big as all of Europe and generalize all over every state. For example where I grew up we did not need guns in schools, and NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes. Generalizing is a huge sign of ignorance and ignorance is with a complete lack of knowledge. Or the lack of your support or any sort of valid knowledge you have read.


Well well well... Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?


3. Massachusetts Institute of Technology?? California Institute of Technology?? These are brainwashing? I know you would like to think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard are brainwashing but then again you look like a conspiracy theorist nut bag. I know many of your kind and researched a lot of the same conspiracy topics probably. Interesting ideas, but none of those claims can be called fact, because amazing people have graduated from these places.


Listen, ass, America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors. Understand me now?

You're right about one thing; I don't fully understand your nation. Hey, you were the guys electing Bush for president, remember? You are the ones waging wars and whatnot. What's that I hear, peacekeaping? Yeah, right. Peace. That's what I've been seeing on the news lately.


Again the US is almost the size of all of Europe and contains about 13 % of the worlds population. And sure German doctors and US doctors are both called doctors but German doctors have to pass Doctor tests again if they want to work in the US; it is merely a fact not ethical discussion. And again you decide to look in on the negative facts without really finding good support or even attempting to be unbias. zomg!! The united states has done something good?!

Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa

"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 -- to nearly $9 billion."

- the W.P.

Why the hell are you such a hater? If they can offer an education that is accepted universally I would move there that is awesome! That is all I wanted to know, but you have turned this into an ethical shit storm. Shock




Edited by on 08-11-08 03:08
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 08-11-08 03:16
Okay. You got me. I'm an angry conspiracy nut-job which only goal in life is to hate and bash America on forums like these.

I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.

Be that as it may, there are valid concerns to be raised on many of the subjects we discussed.

Now, I owe Uber0n an apology for forgetting in which country he lived in for a sec. Sorry Uber0n, I hope you can forgive me.



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 03:41
spyware wrote:
I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.



The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in...


not true



You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty


not true


legitimate:

1 a: lawfully begotten ; specifically : born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth

2: being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false

3 a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements
b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right

4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards



Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!


not true



Well well well... Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?


not true



America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors.


not true



You are the ones waging wars and whatnot


not true



I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.


not true


ShockShockShock




Edited by on 08-11-08 03:41
Author

RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

spyware
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Posted on 08-11-08 03:45
Ah, the power of repeating 'not true' and shaking your head. Care to add any informational sources to those statements? Of course; you could be asking the same for mine, since I didn't provide any. Hm. Would this mean your opinions are just as valid as mine? However, you think my opinions aren't valid. So... you think your opinions aren't valid either?



img507.imageshack.us/img507/3580/spynewsig3il1.png
"The chowner of property." - Zeph
[small]
“Widespread intellectual and moral docility may be convenient for leaders in the short term,
but it is suicidal for nations in the long term.”
- Carl Sagan
“Since the grid is inescapable, what were the earlier lasers about? Does the corridor have a sense of humor?” - Ebert
[/s

Edited by spyware on 08-11-08 15:52
http://bitsofspy.net
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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 03:55
whitecell wrote:
umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. Grin

Dude, what US do you live in? ... Cuz the one I live in is poor. Really poor.

1. $10 trillion poor.
2. Add in the unstable and potentially collapsing economy.
3. Add in our crappy education system.

No offense, because I actually live in the US, too... but, our country is in suck mode right now. That's why I'm waiting to see how the next 4 years may turn things around.

spyware wrote:
The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in...

whitecell wrote:
not true

Then, how exactly does that concept apply to our country, in which scholarships and grants are provided to students that qualify? If other countries are not successful from being able to pay for that education, then how successful are we when we're only paying for a small portion of ours?

spyware wrote:
You are the ones waging wars and whatnot

whitecell wrote:
not true

That one is true. It just sounds worse when taken out of context. Add in the purpose behind them, and they sound more justified (not counting this current, excessively drawn-out one).


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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.


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Posted on 08-11-08 04:04
whitecell wrote:
spyware wrote:
I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.



The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in...


not true




Your really going to argue that the US hasn't been the most successful? We influence the entire world based upon our success...


You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty


not true


PREVIOUS POST: by me

"This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand."



legitimate:

1 a: lawfully begotten ; specifically : born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth

2: being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false

3 a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements
b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right

4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards



Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!


not true




PREVIOUS POST: by me

"For example where I grew up we did not need guns in schools, and NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes."




Well well well... Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?


not true




PREVIOUS POST: by me

"Massachusetts Institute of Technology?? California Institute of Technology?? These are brainwashing? I know you would like to think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard are brainwashing but then again you look like a conspiracy theorist nut bag. I know many of your kind and researched a lot of the same conspiracy topics probably. Interesting ideas, but none of those claims can be called fact, because amazing people have graduated from these places."




America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors.


not true




PREVIOUS POST: by me

"Again the US is almost the size of all of Europe and contains about 13 % of the worlds population. And sure German doctors and US doctors are both called doctors but German doctors have to pass Doctor tests again if they want to work in the US; it is merely a fact not ethical discussion."




You are the ones waging wars and whatnot


not true





PREVIOUS POST: by me

"NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes."




I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.


not true




Look up...:right:


ShockShockShock



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RE: A question for those who have walked the path.

rex_mundi
β˜† Lucifer β˜†



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Posted on 08-11-08 04:15
whitecell wote :
The united states has done something good?!

Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa

"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 -- to nearly $9 billion."

- the W.P.


A mere drop in the ocean compared to the military aid given to Israel

http://www.nytime. . .srael.html




U N Ⓡⓔⓧ_β“‚β“€β“β““β“˜
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