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The REAL hackers

Arrow Image There once was a time when...

There once was a time when hackers actually hacked. When they actually broke into computers and spent hours upon hours looking for exploits in popular software packages -- not to sell them, or to post them for the world to know about and get themselves a leet reputation -- no, they invested all the time and effort to get a working exploit and then *use* it for its intended purpose. To break into computers.

The modern definition of a hacker (at least in some circles, most noteably the more whitehat places) is essentially "someone who wants to become a whitehat/security professional later in life". These sites/people advocate such topics as having "ethics" and "full disclosure". Do you really know what your so called ethics are? Do you really know what full disclosure does?

Your ethics guide you; they're what you say keeps you on the straight and narrow path. They keep you from actively breaking into computers; you could eaisley go out and hack half the Internet at any given time -- at least that's what you tell yourself. When a site has a "root this box" style challenge you eagerly gather your team of whitehat buddies. You're all expected to win the challenge, after all, you're some of the more knowledgeable people on the site, you're read hundreds of text files documenting hacking techniques. You take a look at the box expecting to see a root prompt inside 5 minuets. An hour later you're sitting there frusterated, with no clue on how to procede. Looks like contrived site challenges haven't prepared you for the real thing, and text files just aren't as good as expirence. Nevertheless, you go on calling yourself a "security expert" and think about how easy it would be to get a job as a penetration tester, finding exploits and posting them publically on sites like SecurityFocus and milw0rm, and on lists like BugTraq and Full-Disclosure.

Speaking of Full-Disclosure, have you ever though about what it is you so activley support? You post fully functional exploit code to public places, along with detailed usage instructions. You give the script kiddies the digital munitions they need to attack more computers, and yet you decry them. You tell yourself "Oh, it's okay, I'm not responsible; I put a disclaimer in the comment header of the code!". It's not okay. The script kiddies still have the exploits to work with, and the boxen are still getting owned.

On the topic of script kiddies, you decide that anyone who actively hacks is a script kiddie. If someone hacks your shellbox they're a script kiddie. If someone hacks your whitehat website, they're a script kiddie. You laugh at groups like h0no, PHC, Gobbles, el8, dikline and ZF0. You call them script kiddies. You hear the name "pr0j3kt m4yh3m" and you associate it with script kiddies. You see leet speak in a zine and you assume that it's a script kiddie zine. Trust me, the real hackers laugh at you and your kind. They laugh because while you're talking about the dangers of XSS vulnerabilities in some sample web application, they're out auditing code, finding real 0day exploits. While you're talking about how great whitehats are, they're planning attacks on you. While you and your friends talk about how they're all script kiddies, they're cracking your passwords and reading your spools. Who's the script kiddies now?

The people that you like to term script kiddies are blackhats. The real hackers. They work to preserve the real spirit of hacking. Go read an old issue of Phrack. Notice how it's more underground, and doesn't have any articles written by corporate whitehats? Notice how it actively advocates breaking into computers? Notice how it was written by real hackers, by the modern day definition of the word -- that is, people who actively break into computers. People who actually hack.

Whitehats are the death of the scene. You leech off what we create and call it your own. You try to copyright ideas that have been around for years. You post digital munitions for anyone to download, compile and run. You think that software vendors are all lazy, incompetiant and corrupt. Trust me, they're smarter than you'll ever be. You think that Perl script you coded to exploit an RFI vuln in some PHP application is great code? Yea, right. That's anotehr thing, you want fame so damn badly that you rush to post an exploit to the public, even if the code is of poor quality, or the exploit is buggy. You want fame so badly that you sell out everything you believed in and become part of the corporate machine. You forget that beneath the shiney surface of the security industry there lurks a darker presence. And it is not happy. Again, you dismiss the pr0j3kt m4yh3m advocates as script kiddies. They hack your box and post your spools, all you can do is call them script kiddies. You call yourselves the real hackers so prove it.

Whitehats will be the death of the scene. They've created an atmosphere and fear and greed. Did you honestly expect that you'd be able to go on doing this forever? Did you honestly expect that we'd just sit back and allow you to destroy our world? Did you honestly expect that we'd allow you to define our image? Did you honestly expect that we'd let you redefine the word that describes us?

Hell, did you honestly think you were for real?


The Flashon May 26 2007 - 20:55:11
I feel like you covered all points I've struggled to put into words. Awesome article dude. Usually articles about 'hackers' are immediately declined but this makes a great exception. Amen!
only_samuraion May 26 2007 - 21:00:34
Damned right. amazing article. you really hit some of the key points that plague communities like this one. let this be a wake-up call to all of us, myself included.
digitalchameleonon May 26 2007 - 21:22:43
Amazing. Simply everything that needed to be said.
s0l1dsnak3123on May 26 2007 - 21:24:43
dude, you really changed my perception on what the REAL hackers actually are, this is a really tight article. Thanks Smile A++
kaksiion May 26 2007 - 22:47:29
Dude, your article is so awesome. Nothing to say after this.
a-hackon May 26 2007 - 22:56:28
One of the best articles I've ever read.
kaksiion May 26 2007 - 23:00:00
Did you notice how his ranking only 'Active user', but the guy is awesome.
Ayr4on May 26 2007 - 23:40:36
Rank aint evrything.
spywareon May 27 2007 - 00:05:36
LMAO, WTF?! This is practically one big rant against HBH and Mr_cheese itself Wink, compare this article with his articles. Rating this awesome just for the rant-factor. All other people commenting who don't understand shit about hacking: keep dreaming Wink
nights_shadowon May 27 2007 - 01:10:28
Well, i post exploits for what i have no use for. I actually don't go around finding 0days often. Just if i ever come into a situation with something i want to hack and it so happens to be a new exploit, i'll disclose it + tell the vendor. As for your article, i find some parts pretty contradictory. Like:
You leech off what we create and call it your own
You post fully functional exploit code to public places, along with detailed usage instructions.
I would call myself more a whitehat, but:
They keep you from actively breaking into computers;
is a lot of bullshit as the "white-hats" typically break into things and tell the admins the holes. Which, they now have the experience, yet they've still done what they needed to do. As for this active hackers. DO IT! The more experience you have, the better, just don't get caught. I just get pissed when a blackhat comes in and destroys everything, just because they can. That's pretty useless in my opinion. Just destroying with no reason besides that you can? I want to become a security professional because then i have a challenge. With blackhats it's against the owner, but with whithats it's against the vast numbers of blackhats. Much more challenging and fun, no? I guess i just don't understand most of your article. You've taken the basis of probably a few whitehats and written a paper saying it describes every whitehat? Or it could be that i'm wierd? *pretty rough draft because i have to leave soon, but if you want me to explain more things in detal, just ask me.
wolfmankurdon May 27 2007 - 01:34:23
I'm whitehack if once im in I didn't use a proxy, and I reckon they are likely to bother pressing charges and if it will be successful. Otherwise im black hat ^.^
wolfmankurdon May 27 2007 - 01:38:18
And stop trying to control use, most people are hackers because they don't want to be controlled, and indeed, to fuck with what the world puts most of it's trust in. Computers!
Folk Theoryon May 27 2007 - 04:43:59
ive never seen this much bullshit in one single post.
CrazyCaity123on May 27 2007 - 05:42:35
For the most part, fairly accurate. However, along with all the (poorly-written) pro-whitehat/anti-blackhat articles, it's just a biased opinion on how you think hackers should be. Don't get me wrong, you're one of the only people around here whose opinions I actually respect, but it's all just the same shit over and over again. True as it may be, what the hell is the point? To sum it all up, it's repetitive, boring shit, and I'm sick of hearing about it. Whitehats, blackhats, skiddies, noobs, whoever the hell you are, it doesn't matter; why bother picking at eachother, whining, ranting, complaining? Does it really matter if someone sees you as a skiddy? Does it really matter whether you're an uber 1337 h4xX0r? Don't let it bother you so badly. Just...go outside or something. [targeted at pretty much everyone] *ignore the hypocrisy. It's rainy out today.*
catintheboxon May 27 2007 - 07:09:01
whitehats are"security experts" who et mad when someone defeats their work, namely script kiddies, but this dud is right, they label blackhats as script kiddies, im sure if everyone who knows how to hack or has potential to hack werent so scared of going to jail like so many of us do, we would be breaking and entering all the damn time, most of my friends use msn and internet explorer, nothing exploitable to my standards
spywareon May 27 2007 - 10:30:56
Oh and XSS exploits ARE dangerous, mister n3w7yp3. If used correctly of course.
midoon May 27 2007 - 13:01:14
oh, man nice article i suggest to read this...
spywareon May 27 2007 - 13:49:00
@mido: Ollllllllld text.
korgon May 27 2007 - 14:04:54
"BIG YAWN" Sick of hearing this myself. I hate the term of hat's. I don't label myself like that, I spend a lot of time securing and patching but then when I'm pissed destroying and hacking. Again one person's opinion.
johnjuan728on May 27 2007 - 19:11:16
yea its a well written article... but im with Korg get rid of the hats... you are what you are quit trying to put yourself 'in' with others be yourself and base how you hack and what you do by what YOUR morals are not by anyone elses
I-O-W-Aon May 27 2007 - 19:36:45
fucking hell dude sounds like you got some fucked up issues there, makes a fair few good points there but he put the definition between "black And White Hats" was it the real hackers or the script kiddies? does anyone know? doubt it, it could have been the anyone, yet you sit there an type an define yourself as a real hacker? can you even define the word real? i wouldnt call my self a hacker, i like to exploit things and see how they work, sometimes i do take code from milw0rm and security focus, does that make me a script kiddie? who knows? at the end of the day what is killing the hacking scene is the different types of hackers compiting and slating eachother, its like social interaction gone bad again, its like being racist coz your a white hate you cant be near my black hat, its bull shit its the same that happens to every other thing out there someone or some ppl find summin new start sopmeting again and ppl slate it
spywareon May 27 2007 - 20:40:10
Mr_Cheese, you probably voted poor, can you comment why?
Der Heiligenon May 27 2007 - 21:53:06
I liked this article, but I have to say, hats, for the most part, are stupid. If you're going to use hats, don't make them so precise, I mean, jesus. This is what I think of a black hat. Someone who breaks into a computer or exploits code because either A.) Curious, or B.) Malicious Reasons. Then white hat for me means someone who will break into a computer or exploit code to eventually alert the owner and help them fix it. It's really not that complicated, very basic descriptions. So I guess all's I'm saying is, DON'T WORRY ABOUT LABELS, THEY ARE A WASTE OF TIME!!! If you like hacking/coding/programming/exploiting fucking whatever, then just do it. Don't worry about some stupid pretty little name you can tag onto yourself. Do whatever you do because you love it, and don't get all wrapped up in fuckin stupid little names someone made up.
korgon May 28 2007 - 04:10:05
@ Der Heiligen Fuckin' right brother, FUCK the hat's bullshit.
lesserlightsofheavenon May 31 2007 - 22:37:56
I'm highly amused that the site is split between "Awesome" and "Poor" ratings. This shows how bad the white hat vs black hat nonsense has gotten. You hack for your own reasons and no one elses, that's it. If you want to hack to share it with lamers, fine. If you want to hack to learn, fine. If you want to hack to fuck stuff up, fine. That's your business. Not mine. I will be the first to rate it "good", not for any "hat" reason, merely that the text looks strangely similar to another article I've read somewhere in cyberspace on the same topic, and it could have been more effective if stated anew.
mozzeron June 01 2007 - 09:55:11
People who voted poor >> Folk Theory, korg, Mr_Cheese, johnjuan728, Larika, koolkeith12345, wolfmankurd
mr noobon June 01 2007 - 10:35:31
tbh i think its about time someone showed at least a little blackhat prescence on hbh. id say i sit on the garden fence with hatting, it depends on who owns the server. but yes, i do agree with what n3wtyp3 is saying, a lot of people are associating black hats with skiddies nowadays, and something has to be said about it.
Genomeon June 03 2007 - 20:35:15
hats are ghey, yay for n3w7yp3! :angry:
TWS_Sentinelon June 04 2007 - 07:52:11
One of the lamest articles I've read in quite some time... 1. People need to stop this gay hacker manifesto crap. WhiteHat, GreyHat, BlackHat ... whatever ... you are who you are based upon your actions and ethics. 2. XSS security flaws can be extremely dangerous. For some reason, n3w7yp3 thinks that because you don't need to reverse engineer a software, it's not worthy of an exploit. Wow is he dumb. XSS xploits can cause what-should-be-secure dbase info, to be exposed. In the last few years, XSS has become the topic of discussion in security ... hmm, I wonder why. 3. L33T speak is f***in' really lame. Maybe this is why people pass off real hackers as script kiddies. How about, try speaking proper english. Using numbers as letters is pretty old-school, and should have died with the old-school! If el8 really has an actual project called "pr0j3kt m4yh3m", wow ... all I can say ... wow; could they possibly be more UN-original. 4. This whole article is like stupid propaganda. 5. "WhiteHats" are the death of the scene. Your a moron. I would hardly call Mudge, of eEye Security, part of the "death of the scene". Besides being a leading member of CDC, his company reports tons of original work in exploitation to companies like Microsoft. I think that's pretty fucking commemorable. In fact, I call the death of the scene: People who try to belittle others by creating labels and rules as to how a hacker should think and act. 6. Those who actually read and believed that this article shed any truth, need to honestly think for themselves and not believe every word. Just like how you should question my comment. Form your own opinion. 7. A little heads-up to those who come to this site thinking they will learn to hack by doing these challenges: > You might learn a little bit. You won't learn to hack. > Challenges on half of these "HackThisSite" type web-sites, are completely useless in the field. You want to learn to hack ... try opening up a damn book on programming. In fact ... open several, because the learning process never ends. Learn every damn language you can possibly. Learn system programming, raw sockets/internet programming. You won't find little hints in the comments of html. lol Don't even try to start hacking if you can't program; you will only end up being a "Script Kiddie". Learn how to conduct a penetration test properly. All in all ... this article was horrible. n3w7yp3, you should be ashamed.
Killkoreon June 04 2007 - 08:03:56
I bet 10 dollors newtype is sitting in his chair laughing his ass off right now. You're all morons Smile
bl4ckc4ton June 06 2007 - 22:28:35
n3w7yp3 is exactly right on this, by old standards, none of us are real hackers. -Bl4ckC4t
Der Heiligenon June 09 2007 - 15:32:04
@bl4ckc4t, but what is a REAL hacker? Seriously, it's just a name, people get too into labels, they try to make everything picture perfect and fit THEIR perfect description of themselves. Don't let names run your lives, seriously, how ridiculous is that? You're spending your time talking about names! What, are we all in the 2nd grade here? But whatever, I don't think n3w7yp3 is even trying to put names on people. Based on his idea of what a white hat and black hat are, and how the idea of what a REAL hacker is in his mind, he wrote an article about it. And also, seriously, another point I think he's trying to make, is that White Hats are the one's creating all the fuckin script kiddies. I mean seriously, a lot of the time, it's white hats (the white hats I think of) that post fully functional code, they release it to everyone therefore just like an open offering to all the skiddies. The Black Hats (Once again, my idea of them) are the ones keeping it to themselves, making sure the skiddies die off so they do something themselves. Whatever, I'm just ranting, I really couldn't give a fuck about this article and what ANY of your opinions are, they don't mean shit, and they shouldn't mean shit to anyone else either. So seriously, good article n3w7yp3, and fuck everyone who can't open up their mind and try to look at something a different way.
Phantomchaseron June 10 2007 - 19:55:54
Interesting. I have thought a lot about this topic. I'd say that trying to define the term, to identify what makes a real hacker, is a lost cause. I say that because everyone has their own idea of what a REAL hacker is and even a persons own opinions can change. Good article.
thk-geoon June 10 2007 - 22:22:15
There are people who doesnt release anything of theyre findings and there are people who does, live with it. It might seem like the whitehats are "feeding" the skiddies with working exploits but there will always be skiddies, people who dont understand how things work, just want it to work. And imo there are no such thing as hats, there are people with different skills in computers. Skiddies doesnt have much so why dont we turn the skiddies into "hackers" instead of blaming eachother for "creating" the skiddies? And about the term hackers, many people claim that hackers are just the "old school hackers" wich were mostly phreakers. These days there are different kinds of hacking and also, of course, different kinds of hackers. (This all is just my opinion, I dont say its "right" in any way) -Geo
SANTAon June 11 2007 - 08:38:22
hey look its shit!!! in paper form!!! wow tahts a first. still makes me proud to be a gray-hat but hello are you stupid or something we dont call them skiddies cause they sue 1337 speak wee call them skiddies because when we talked to them yesterday they said something like this "haha FBI cant catch me i ran my cloaking program! oh btw ive ran metsploit on this site but it doesnt have any presaved scripts for expploiting the site can you write me one?!?!" ok tahts jsut plain annoying and i hate it. BTW well said GEO you have garnered my respect as team member and friend because i am an alternate hacker ok i suck at webhacking i can do basics but not much. But hey ive never met a WLAN i cant hack or a blue tooth fone i cant dive into. There's all sorts of talents i have that ive only met a handful that do. :ninja: (excuse the lack of modesty)
DrBeaveron February 22 2008 - 03:01:22
With great power bestowed on hackers comes much responsibility to use the skills wisely. What will you be known for, destroying innocent bystanders information just because you can, or will you be known for saving someone from persecution. As hackers, we don't understand that there should be no hat ranking. We must all become one people, or race if you will. If you call yourself a hacker, don't be one for selfish purposes. It is idiocy to say, 'look at me, i can destroy some poor souls future, but I couldn't care less!' Why do you do things like that? What is the real meaning of black hat to you. I look at those who align themselves with the black hat and see selfish, ignorant, HYPOCRITICAL IDIOTS. Why do you call yourself a hacker, you are nothing more than the scum beneath our feet, a darkness that refuses to be lit. Why is it that you insist that the ethical ones are incopitent, while in fact you are the only ones worthy of that title. You are all blinded by greed and can't see the truth when it is shoved in your faces. Shed your shackles of idiocy and embrace the ones who can help you. Are you truly happy with what you have done to others? You attack the innocent for selfish gain, the wise to try to promote your image, and the weak to show your power. You only have power because ptople fear you, but what kind of power is that? True power can only be achieved through wisdom and self restraint. The way is hard and slow, but the payoff is great. Why do you live, what will be your legacy?
COD3on April 11 2008 - 16:50:40
@n3w7yp3--> Dude, cut the f*cking hats out of hacking kid. I'm sick and tired of this shit. And i agree totally, who in the hell rated this awesome. This kid is prolly a skiddie himself and is only ranting what he's been told by real hackers. I agree with one thing, black hats are the original hackers and always will be the only form of hacker i commute with and socialie with..f*ck you whitehat whore!!
iownzyouon April 14 2008 - 16:29:07
iam not hacker but i like both since white hats share to public so i can learn from them more...and black hats type dont share but i like them more for personal reasons.
nine-ballon August 02 2008 - 07:37:23
When in a more reasonable situation. black-hat and white-hat both are a contribution to the whole itself. Think of the white-hat building castles checking for flaws in the "hacker" point of view and black-hats raid them, knock them down expose them for what they are, vulnerable. Point being there must be a order and a chaos or no one will ever progress. Think about it, what drives you? Competition? Purpose? A goal? What do you want out of being a hacker? What will you learn and how?
macfarlaneton September 18 2008 - 10:51:25
Definitely changed my perspective of a few things. Good rant. (And I don't usually applaud rants)
pt00on November 07 2009 - 00:06:49
What is the big deal with hats? Are we really so desperate to fit into a group that it's necessary for us to choose a side. Why can't we all just do what we do and not have to contribute to these flame wars of Blackhats vs. Whitehats. And as for those who voted this article poor; I think it is a well written piece of work, and his opinions have logical reasons behind them. Just because you don't fully agree with what is being said, or just because the author is merely ranked Mad User, or just because you feel threatened by the presence of a hacker who isn't afraid to break the law, doesn't mean you have to give the article a low rating.
skills_440on February 15 2013 - 01:26:47
i know im probly gonna take some heat but whats a n00b to do and this has been bugin me latly and this seems like a good article to post it on.... is HBH a blackhat site???? even thu the article above says no i still want to be shure before i start posting and asking questions about hacking.
Neutr0non May 10 2013 - 14:55:12
Shock *vg* Thumbs Up Wink
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